The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Even Augustine taught post-mortem salvation

Interesting, was it an unbeliever?

I assume so if he ended up in hell.

Sorry, I having trouble even finding “Aug. De Anima, i. 10.” in English :confused:

Do you think that Augustine thought that he knew who was in hell, that his guy had gone there?

Probably, as most Christians think they know who goes to hell i.e. 90% of the population, who die before repenting and becoming a Christian :frowning:

Given Luke’s still not convinced by this, I’ve begun digging further…

Augustine"]There is no denying that the souls of the dead are benefited by the piety of their living friends, when the sacrifice of the Mediator is offered for the dead, or alms are given in the church. But these means benefit only those who, when they were living, have merited that such services could be of help to them. For there is a mode of life that is neither so good as not to need such helps after death nor so bad as not to gain benefit from them after death. There is, however, a good mode of life that does not need such helps, and, again, one so thoroughly bad that, when such a man departs this life, such helps avail him nothing. It is here, then, in this life, that all merit or demerit is acquired whereby a man’s condition in the life hereafter is improved or worsened. Therefore, let no one hope to obtain any merit with God after he is dead that he has neglected to obtain here in this life.

So, then, those means which the Church constantly uses in interceding for the dead are not opposed to that statement of the apostle when he said, “For all of us shall stand before the tribunal of Christ, so that each may receive according to what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.”[size=75]236[/size] For each man has for himself while living in the body earned the merit whereby these means can benefit him after death. For they do not benefit all. And yet why should they not benefit all, unless it be because of the different kinds of lives men lead in the body? Accordingly, when sacrifices, whether of the altar or of alms, are offered for the baptized dead, they are thank offerings for the very good, propitiations for the not-so-very-bad non valde malis, and, as for the very bad–even if they are of no help to the dead–they are at least a sort of consolation to the living. Where they are of value, their benefit consists either in obtaining a full forgiveness or, at least, in making damnation [hell] more tolerable.

[size=75]236 Rom. 14:10; II Cor. 5:10.[/size]

Oh sure, NOW Augustine is considered a good guy and authoritative… :unamused:

Finally found Aug. De Anima!

Augustine"]Concerning Dinocrates, however, the brother of St. Perpetua, there is no record in the canonical Scripture; nor does the saint herself, or whoever it was that wrote the account, say that the boy, who had died at the age of seven years, died without baptism; in his behalf she is believed to have had, when her martyrdom was imminent, her prayers effectually heard that he should be removed from the penalties of the lost to rest. Now, boys at that time of life are able both to lie, and, saying the truth, both to confess and deny. Therefore, when they are baptized they say the Creed, and answer in their behalf to such questions as are proposed to them in examination. Who can tell, then, whether that boy, after baptism, in a time of persecution was estranged from Christ to idolatry by an impious father, and on that account incurred mortal condemnation, from which he was only delivered for Christ’s sake, given to the prayers of his sister when she was at the point of death?What do you think? :confused:

:laughing: I’m sure he had a few helpful things to say (although not about ECT/P!). However I’m quoting him because Calvin loved him & if it can be shown he beleived in postmortem salvation, it would be neat :wink:

Oooh, great point, Augustine!

I just keep getting more and more fodder for my future book! :sunglasses:

I remember a quote I once read from St. Augustine, where he said something to the effect that he did not wish to end all discussion on sense the meaning of the term eternal (aionian) punishment."

I think his exact words were “as to the sense in which punishment might be said to be eternal,” but I might be wrong.

Could anyone help me locate it?

It would be interesting if he wrote that after he wrote the comments in his “The City of God” (particularly sense he’s known to have changed his views on some things, like his interpretation of Matt. 16;19.)

Has anyone been able to credibily confirm (with authrotiy backing and a clear quote) that Augustine believed post-mortem salvatio was possible? I’d like to be able to add him to my list of those who deny traditional hellism if I can (and put him under post-mortem salvationists).

I’m pretty sure the quotes given above (which are greatly helpful) would fit into a consistent Augustinian concept of purgatory being offered for those who have already “merited” it by means of induction into the Christian Church. That the eternal fire and condemnation (or “damnation” as the translation gives it) would be applied to them as well, wouldn’t obviate the point: they were substantially saved before post-mortem punishment.

I suspected as much (shame) - thanks for the calrification Jason. So basically, Augustine held that some believers/Christians /baptised would go through purgatory before heaven, but didn’t hold that non-believers etc. had any sort of sceond-chance after death.

Right. Essentially the Roman Catholic position since then (if not before).

Augustine doesn’t seem to have been all that fond of the notion that the torments of the damned might be lessened either, but he grudgingly allowed the possibility through prayers of the faithful (not through any primary action by God).

Roman Catholic doctrine could in theory allow, however, for all the damned to eventually enter limbo through repentance (and prayers of the faithful etc.), which would be equivalent to the best pagan notions of paradise, possibly even including social communion with the saints, just without any communion with God (i.e. no communion of the saints)–which would still be a permanently hopeless grief to them, though the minimum hopeless grief possible under the circumstances.

Are you sure Jason, what about my Augustine quotes above? :confused:

“For some of the dead, indeed, the prayer of the Church or of pious individuals is heard; but it is for those who, having been regenerated in Christ, did not spend their life so wickedly that they can be judged unworthy of such compassion, nor so well that they can be considered to have no need of it.”

He’s talking about the purification of people already being saved by Christ in communion with the Church, and that’s the context wherein he goes on to talk about how some people will have to still be punished by the eternal fire after the general resurrection: some come out of purgatory before the resurrection, some after.

In your quote from the Enchiridion, Augustine says about prayers for the dead by the pious, “But these means benefit only those who, when they were living, have merited that such services could be of help to them. …] Therefore, let no one hope to obtain any merit with God after he is dead that he has neglected to obtain here in this life.” The merit Augustine was talking about involves good deeds done in the context of having already been saved into the Church; Augustine of all people wasn’t talking about meriting being saved in the first place!

What Augustine allows is that a person outside the Church might do enough good to merit reduction of suffering in hell, not full forgiveness (which is reserved for those being regenerated by Christ); but his position requires him to deny that God will not originate such mercy – God requires being convinced to give such (limited) mercy (but not salvation) by virtue of those who pray for the unsaved dead.

His reference in the De Anima follows suit: if Perpetua’s tale was accurate, that (for Augustine) means the boy must have been baptized and even in a confessionary manner. After all, she doesn’t say he wasn’t baptized, thus Augustine speculates that he entered into saving communion young but was afterward led astray by his father earning what would have been moral condemnation (but wasn’t because he had already been saved into Christ).

, Dr Taylor Marshall"]Did Church Fathers other than Saint Gregory the Great teach Purgatory? You betcha.

The Acts of Paul and Thekla, Clement of Alexandria, Tertullian, St Cyprian, St Basil, St Gregory Nyssa, St Ephraem, St Jerome, and St Augustine – all taught purgatory.

Remember, the Jews pray for the dead and the early Church carried over this OT practice.

Here’s Saint Augustine on purgatory:

Actually, since you did bring of Augustine, City of God is a very interesting work to read.

aioni = eon = “age-period”, and not world, which is in Greek “kosmon” or “Kosmos”. Hre the Greek uses eon (age) to designate the AGE (dispensation) period before the Cross, and the one immediately following - maybe ending at Pentacost, where the third eon,from His period,starts with the indwelling Holy Spirit - Grace period - which surey allows each and ALL to come to repentance. Jesuswas not “cutting them off” forever, as many think, but pointing out that it will take time - the age He was in, the period of time that follows, and into/ with the beginning of the next, before these blasphemers could have access to grace. the verse reads as follows: “And whosoever may be saying a word against the Son of Mankind, it will be |pardoned him, yet whoever may be saying aught against the holy *spirit, it shall not be |pardoned him, neither in this *eon nor in *that which is impending.” (CLV translation)

St. Augustine’s arguements fail when the truth of the word “eternal” is properly understood as “Age-Abiding”. The supposed eternal fire for thew damned is the same purifying fire as for the ones saved “so as by fire.” There are NOT two fires, but one! Roman Latin theology makes me want to puke.