The Evangelical Universalist Forum

SNIPPETS FROM MY HARD COPY UR LIBRARY

ARGUMENTS

I believe that a literally (not interpretively) translated Bible teaches that sooner or later God is going to save everyone from everything from which they need to be saved, including their stubborn will.

Everyone will choose to believe whatever they are convinced is the truth about what the Bible teaches.

I’m just so glad that I learned about the following information because it enabled me to recover from a twelve year nervous breakdown (1966-78).
I’m 77 years old now.

People who can love an “eternal torment” or “annihilationist” god will not be interested in the following information
Will Jesus Torture Billions Forever?
godfire.net/eby/circularity.html

But people who cannot love an “eternal torment” or “annihilationist” god will discover that all of the arguments against the Bible teaching universal salvation have been refuted in the following links.

THE SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD
godfire.net/eby/saviour_of_the_world.html

ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE IN JESUS CHRIST
sigler.org/slagle/absolute.htm

BIBLE THREATENINGS EXPLAINED
tentmaker.org/books/BibleThr … ained.html

FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS
tentmaker.org/FAQ/index.html

INFORMATION ON HELL AND UNIVERSAL SALVATION
tentmaker.org/bloglinks.htm

UNIVERSAL SALVATION UNIVERSITY
richardwaynegarganta.com/universalsalvation.htm

AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS
tentmaker.org/books/asw/index.html

THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE
saviourofall.org/Tracts/Eons2.html

THE SCHOLARS CORNER THE CENTER FOR BIBLE STUDIES IN CHRISTIAN UNIVERSALISM
tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html

Also Google up TENTMAKER, and at the top of the front page type a key word or phrase from any argument or scripture passage into the search engine. Ten articles will come up refuting the claim that the Bible teaches eternal torment or annihilation. Then click to the next page and ten more articles will come up, and so on and so on for many pages.
The link to TENTMAKER is
tentmaker.org/

ARMINIAN BELIEF VERSUS CALVINIST BELIEF VERSUS UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEF

ARMINIAN BELIEF - It’s as if God says
“Unless you are lucky enough to find out about my Son during this lifetime, and even if you are that lucky, if you don’t have the good sense to cooperate with my Son properly before you die, then I am going to raise you from the dead and I will either annihilate you, or sustain you alive in an inescapable state of eternal torment.”

Christ’s apparent mission: To save from annihilation or eternal torment only those who are lucky enough to hear about Jesus before they die, and also have enough good sense to properly cooperate with Him before they die.

CALVINIST BELIEF - It’s as if God says
“Since there is nothing you can do about it because you are totally depraved and you are not one of the elect, it is obvious that I created most of you for the purpose of either annihilating you or letting you suffer eternal torment. However, I am going to unconditionally choose a few of you to go to heaven where you will be happy forever.”

Christ’s apparent mission: To let everyone be annihilated, or suffer eternal torment except the unconditionally elected few that He rescues by His irresistible grace.

UNIVERSAL RECONCILIATION BELIEF (mine) – God says
“Sooner or later, because of what Christ accomplished by His death and resurrection, I am going to save all of you from everything from which you need to be saved, including your stubborn will.”

Christ’s scriptural mission: ‘And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world’ (1John 4:14).

I worship a Jesus Who will be completely successful in accomplishing the reason why His Father sent Him.

Christ was prophesied to take away the sin of the world (Jn. 1:29), so how then can a sinless world suffer everlasting punishment?! How absurd! Christ is the Saviour of the world (Jn. 4:42; 1Jn. 4:14), and He will save it!"

THE AGES COLLECTIVELY COME TO AN END WITH EVERYONE SAVED

GOD’S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
“During the present wicked eon (Gal.1:4), Sin reigns, Satan who is said to be “the god of this eon” (2 Cor.4:4) blinds and deceives mankind, and death swallows up the race (1 Cor.15:22). But notwithstanding, God is over all and is in supreme control. He is the eonian God. In due time He will deliver the entire creation and bring good out of all the suffering mankind is called upon to endure (Rom.8;18-23).”

GOD’S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE
saviourofall.org/Tracts/Eons2.html

Augustine and Matthew 25:46
Augustine gave a couple of reasons why he believed it was in vain that some, indeed very many, in his day, believed there was no eternal punishment:

“It is quite in vain, then, that some–indeed very many–yield to merely human feelings and deplore the notion of the eternal punishment of the damned and their interminable and perpetual misery. They do not believe that such things will be. Not that they would go counter to divine Scripture–but, yielding to their own human feelings, they soften what seems harsh and give a milder emphasis to statements they believe are meant more to terrify than to express the literal truth. “ ‘God will not forget,’ ” they say, “ ‘to show mercy, nor in his anger will he shut up his mercy.’ ” This is, in fact, the text of a holy psalm. But there is no doubt that it is to be interpreted to refer to those who are called “vessels of mercy,” those who are freed from misery not by their own merits but through God's mercy. Even so, if they suppose that the text applies to all men, there is no ground for them further to suppose that there can be an end for those of whom it is said, “ ‘Thus these shall go into everlasting punishment.’ ” Otherwise, it can as well be thought that there will also be an end to the happiness of those of whom the antithesis was said: “ ‘But the righteous into life eternal.’ ” 

(end quote)
It may be that many of the early believers in Augustine’s day did “deplore the notion of eternal punishment” by yielding to “human feelings” and reliance upon God’s mercy. But, was Augustine correct to quote Matthew 25:46 to support the notion of “eternal punishment of the damned and their interminable and perpetual misery’’? I say No, he was not.
He is saying that if punishment is temporary then it logically follows that the life for the righteous is temporary as well. But is Matthew 25:31-46 really saying this is about the fate of “damned” vs. the righteous for all eternity? No! This judgment takes place when Christ comes back and sets up His 1000 year kingdom (see also Revelation 20). When Christ comes back (Matt.25:31) He will call the nations to this judgment. They will be judged as to how Christ’s brethren were treated. Having faith in Christ or lack thereof is not what they are being judged for. Christ never calls the sheep nations His brothers but He does tell them that they treated His brethren correctly.
Secondly, the “kolasin aionion” or “chastening eonian” which the goat nations must endure is equal in length to the life (zoe aionion/life eonian) in the kingdom which the sheep nations enjoy. When the 1000 year eon ends, both the chastening of the goat nations and the life of the sheep nations end. Then all must appear before the great white throne. The earth is destroyed and I’m sure that some from both groups of the goat and sheep nations will enter into the lake of fire.
But this is not their “eternal” lot, for, one day, death, (the second death) which the lake of fire is called, will be abolished, all will be made alive (be vivified or given immortality), subjected to Christ and God will be All in all, not All in some (see 1 Cor.15:22-28).
Augustine, for all his brilliance, was not given to see certain truths in the Scriptures. While he may have been correct to state that the given psalm was meant to pertain to the vessels of mercy, It is too bad that he did not see the truth of Romans 11:32 how that God should be merciful in the future to those who are enemies to the evangel and stubborn now.
Tony Nungesser
saviourofall.org/2003Newslet … stine.html

AUGUSTINE

Dr. Edwin Abbott, headmaster of the City of London School, wrote in his Cambridge Sermons -

QUOTE: "An argument was introduced by Augustine, and since his day incessantly repeated, that if aionios kolasis does not mean “endless punishment,” then there is no security for the believer that aionios zoe means “endless life,” and that he will enjoy the promise of endless happiness. But Matt. 25:46 shows the “eonian chastisement” and “eonian life” are of the same duration-lasting during the eons, and when the eons end, as Scripture states they will (1 Cor. 10:11; Heb. 9:26), the time called “eonian” is past and the life called “eonian” is finished, but life continues beyond the eons, as Paul teaches at 1 Cor. 15:26: “The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death (which must refer to the lake of fire which is the second death, for the first death cannot be the last enemy). That is, the last, the final one in order. How will it be destroyed? First Corinthians 15:22 gives the answer: “For as IN ADAM ALL are dying, even so IN CHRIST ALL shall be made alive.” Death is destroyed when ALL have been made alive, IN CHRIST.” – Dr. Edwin Abbott

Note God’s wording
“In Christ all shall be made alive”
not
All who are in Christ

GOD’S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE
saviourofall.org/Tracts/Eons2.html

From the hard copy UNIVERSAL RECONCILIATION library of Rodger Tutt

BOOKS WITH SPINES (NO STAPLES)

  1. REDEMPTION ALL IN ALL – RAY PRINZING
  2. ALL IN ALL - A.E. KNOCH
  3. THE PROBLEM OF EVIL AND THE JUDGMENTS OF GOD – A.E. KNOCH
  4. THE INESCAPABLE LOVE OF GOD – THOMAS TALBOTT
  5. A TREATISE ON ATONEMENT – HOSEA BALLOU
  6. SALVATOR MUNDI: OR, IS CHRIST THE SAVIOUR OF ALL MEN? – SAMUEL COX
  7. GOD’S RULES FOR SCRIPTURAL INTERPRETATION AND MAN’S PLACE IN GOD’S PURPOSE – CHARLES J. PEART
  8. THE PURPOSE OF GOD’S WILL – GUY MARKS
  9. A CLOUD OF WITNESSES – J.W. HANSON
  10. TRUTH AS I SEE IT – W.F. SALTER
  11. A SHORT HELP AND INCENTIVE TO AN UNBIASED INQUIRY INTO THE SCRIPTURE TRUTH OF UNIVERSALISM OR THE FINAL RESTORATION OF ALL THINGS – R. ROE
  12. THE FIVE SMOOTH STONES OF THE KINGDOM – IRENE LINDSAY
  13. TIME AND ETERNITY- G.T. STEVENSON
  14. THE DIVINE DESTINY – K. ROSS MCKAY
  15. IS HELL ETERNAL? – MIKKEL DAHL AND JON R. WELKER
  16. THE DOCTRINE OF ETERNAL TORMENTS OVERTHROWN – THOMAS WHITTEMORE
  17. THE GREEK WORD AION – AIONIOS TRANSLATED EVERLASTING – ETERNAL IN THE HOLY BIBLE SHOWN TO DENOTE LIMITED DURATION – JOHN WESLEY HANSON
  18. A LETTER OF THE CELEBRATED JOHN FOSTER TO A YOUNG MINISTER ON THE DURATION OF FUTURE PUNISHMENT AND AN EARNEST APPEAL TO THE AMERICAN TRACT SOCIETY IN REGARDS TO THE CHARACTER OF ITS PUBLICATIONS – JOHN FOSTER
  19. IS HELL ETERNAL OR WILL GOD’S PLAN FAIL - CHARLES H. PRIDGEON
  20. THE GOSPEL FROM OUTER SPACE – ROBERT SHORT
  21. THE GREAT REVELATION OR GOD’S LOVE, PURPOSE AND PLAN – JOHN H. PATON
  22. AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS – LOUIS ABBOTT
  23. DARE WE HOPE THAT ALL MEN BE SAVED – HANS URS VON BALTHASAR
  24. GOD’S ULTIMATE – A.E. SAXBY
  25. A SPIRITUAL AUTOBIOGRAPHY – WILLIAM BARCLAY
  26. THE GOSPEL OF OUR SALVATION – ADLAI LOUDY
  27. CHRIST TRIUMPHANT – THOMAS ALLIN
  28. THE ANCIENT HISTORY OF UNIVERSALISM – HOSEA BALLOU
  29. THE MODERN HISTORY OF UNIVERSALISM – THOMAS WHITTEMORE
  30. RESTITUTION OF ALL THINGS – ANDREW JUKES
  31. YOU SAID IT LORD – ALINE TALSMA
  32. THOUGHTS ON THE DIVINE GOODNESS RELATIVE TO THE GOVERNMENT OF MORAL AGENTS PARTICULARLY DISPLAYED IN FUTURE REWARDS AND PUNISHMENTS – FERDINAND OLIVER PETITPIERRE
  33. HOPE BEYOND HELL – GERRY BEAUCHEMIN
  34. AT THE END OF THE AGES THE ABOLITION OF HELL – BOB EVELY
  35. THE RESTORATION OF ALL THINGS OR A VINDICATION OF THE GRACE OF GOD TO BE MANIFESTED AT LAST IN THE RECOVERY OF HIS WHOLE CREATION OUT OF THEIR FALL – JEREMIAH WHITE
  36. THE GREAT DELVERANCE – GUY MARKS
  37. UNION – JAMES RELLY
  38. THE UNIVERSAL RESTORATION – ELHANAN WINCHESTER
  39. THE JUST JUDGMENT OF GOD – JAMES CORAM
  40. GRACIOUS GOSPEL BOOK FOUR – SHERWOOD MICHAEL
  41. HOW TO KEEP 0N LIVING – DUSEAN BERKICH
  42. THE EVERLASTING GOSPEL – PAUL SIEGVOLCK

BOOKS WITH STAPLES

  1. TIME, ETERNITY AND GOD – REDEMPTION’S GLORY – RAY PRINZING
  2. THE MAGNITUDE OF REDEMPTION – RAY PRINZING
  3. THE INTERPLAY OF GOOD AND EVIL – RAY PRINZING
  4. DIVINE INWORKINGS – ALL IN ALL – RAY PRINZING
  5. THE UNENDING TRIUMPH OF JESUS CHRIST – ED GREGORY
  6. THE TRUE BASIS OF REDEMPTION – A.P. ADAMS
  7. THE SAVIOUR OF ALL MANKIND - JOSEPH KIRK, WILLIAM C. REBMANN, DEAN HOUGH, AND JAMES CORAM
  8. ETERNAL TORMENT OR UNIVERSAL RECONCILIATION – A.E. KNOCH
  9. CREATION, REDMPTION AND THE RESTITUTION OF ALL THINGS – GEORGE R. HAWTIN
  10. EONIAN - EVERLASTING OR AGE-LASTING – GRACE H. TODD
  11. THE PROBLEM OF EVIL – JOHN H. ESSEX
  12. THE PURPOSE OF GOD – JOHN H. ESSEX
  13. THE GREATNESS OF SALVATION – WILLIAM MEALAND
  14. GOD JUSTIFIES, VIVIFIES, SAVES AND RECONCILES ALL – E.G. JONES
  15. TWO STUDIES ON HEAVEN AND HELL – A.E. KNOCH
  16. A RANSOM FOR ALL – E.T. SPRINGETT MOXHAM
  17. THE AGES IN THE SCRIPTURES – VLADIMIR GELESNOFF
  18. “HELL” – VLADIMIR GELESNOFF
  19. “ONE” AND “ALL” – JOHN ESSEX
  20. ON THESE THINGS MEDITATE – WILLIAM MEALAND
  21. “ETERNAL LIFE” – LOYAL F. HURLEY
  22. TORTURING DOUBTS AND EXULTANT FAITH – JAMES CORAM
  23. THE GLORY OF THE HAPPY GOD – ARTHUR CHARLES LAMB
  24. THE CONCEPT OF CIRCULARITY – JACK E. JACOBSEN
  25. GOD’S PERFECT PLAN – AUTHOR UNKNOWN
  26. THE CROSS AND THE AGES TO COME – G. CAMPBELL MORGAN
  27. NOTES FROM ROMANS 5 – W.H. GRIFFITH THOMAS
  28. DEFINITION OF BIBLE TERMS – GEORGE R. HAWTIN
  29. HE LIGHTETH EVERY MAN – VIRGENE ANDREWS
  30. AGES OR ETERNITY AND THE KING JAMES VERSION – JOHN DOKAS
  31. THE PLAN OF REDEMPTION SEEN FROM GOD’S VIEWPOINT – DORA VAN ASSEN
  32. DIVINE JUDGMENT - DORA VAN ASSEN
  33. GOD’S UNFAILING PLAN REVEALED IN THE EONS – DORA VAN ASSEN
  34. THE SPIRIT AND POWER OF ELIJAH – PAUL MUELLER
  35. “ASK OF ME OF THINGS TO COME” – K. ROSS MCKAY
  36. “ MY COUNSEL SHALL STAND” – K. ROSS MCKAY
  37. “ FOR WHO HATH RESISTED HIS WILL – K. ROSS MCKAY
  38. THE GREAT WHITE THRONE – AUTHOR UNKNOWN
  39. PROGRESSIVE REVELATION WITHIN THE BIBLE – EARNEST L. MARTIN
  40. THE PURPOSE OF EVIL – GUY MARKS
  41. THE PLACE OF HUMANITY IN GOD’S PURPOSE – JOHN H. ESSEX
  42. A FEW THOUGHTS ON THE SCRIPTURES – G.J. SALTER
  43. RESTORATION: THROUGH THE FEAST OF TABERNACLES – CHARLES WELLER
  44. THE EONS OF THE BIBLE – JOSEPH E. KIRK
  45. OUR CHURCH FATHERS TESTIFY – JACK JACOBSON
  46. WHO THEN CAN BE SAVED – KENNETH BRIX
  47. BE YE RECONCILED – VIRGENE ANDREWS
  48. MY UNEXPECTED DISCOVERY – HANNAH WHITALL SMITH
  49. WHENCE ETERNITY? – ALEXANDER THOMSON
  50. MUST AION MEAN ETERNAL? – PHILIP SCRANTON
  51. TARDY OF HEART TO BELIEVE ALL – F. NEIL POHORLAK
  52. MARTIN ZENDER GOES TO HELL – MARTIN ZENDER
  53. THE DEPTHS OF GOD WILL RETRIEVE ALL - ANTHONY J. BORRELLO
  54. NONE LOST, NONE DESTROYED – ANTHONY J. BORRELLO
  55. SOONER OR LATER GOD ALL IN ALL - ANTHONY J. BORRELLO
  56. 100 SCRIPTURAL PROOFS THAT JESUS CHRIST IS THE SAVIOR OF ALL MANKIND – THOMAS WHITTEMORE
  57. A TRUE REVELATION AND A SECOND WITNESS – TRAVIS OGLETREE
  58. THE CHRIST OF GLORY – MARVIN W. RICE
  59. JUSTIFICATION – DONALD G. HAYTER
  60. THE “EVIL” FROM THE LORD – MICHAEL KILLIAN
  61. THE FEET MINISTRY – DON BRUCE
  62. HELL – J.W. WILLIAMS
  63. LIFE FOR ALL - CHARLES W. COTTON
  64. UNIVERSAL RECONCILIATION – MINNIE ALBERTSON
  65. 125 NUTS FOR CALVINISTS TO CRACK – C.R. BIERBOWER
  66. ALL AND ALL IN ALL – VINCE HOLLANDER AND HENRY BULLER
  67. THE WAY TO SALVATION IN THE CHRISTIAN GOSPEL – ERNEST L. MARTIN
  68. THE EARLY VIEW OF THE SAVIOR – GARY AMIRAULT
  69. ETERNAL DEATH – ONE STEP OUT OF HELL, ONE STEP SHORT OF GLORY - GARY AMIRAULT
  70. THE GATES OF HELL SHALL NOT PREVAIL – TONY HINKLE
  71. THE SECOND DEATH – A.E. SAXBY
  72. OVERWHELMING GRACE – JOHN H. ESSEX
  73. THE GOSPEL OF GRACE – CHARLES W. WELLER
  74. JUSTIFICATION – DONALD G. HAYTER
  75. THE OUTCOME OF INFINITE GRACE – LOYAL F. HURLEY
  76. THE GOSPEL – BERT BAUMAN
  77. WHAT GOD SAYS CONCERNING HELL – J.F. RODGERS
  78. MAN’S FAILURE OR GOD’S SUCCESS – WHICH WILL STAND? – LEE SALISBURY
  79. ETERNITY EXPLAINED – LEE SALISBURY
  80. JUST WHAT DO YOU MEAN? (SERIES OF13 VOLUMES) J. PRESTON EBY

GRACE OVERWHELMS

What I perceive to be a basic issue.

People who don’t think salvation is 100% by God, not just 100% “provided” by God like to be in the hands of their own “free” will. That is where they feel most secure.

IMO, that is the most basic difference between ETers and URs.

Just like in the case of Lydia (whose heart the Lord opened, Acts 16:14) and Saul of Tarsus (Acts 9:1-8), our cooperation to be saved is the result, not the cause, of God laying hold on us by His sovereign grace and causing Jesus to be “choice” in our heart.

The timing of the salvation of everyone is under God’s sovereign control.
God arranges everything so each person will be saved according to His perfect timing for each individual.

HIS ACHIEVEMENT ARE WE - James Coram
CHOOSING WHAT IS CHOICE
biblical studies: His Achievement Are We - Part 9 - Choosing What Is Choice
concordant.org/expohtml/HisAchie … nt009.html
“No one to whom Christ is not yet choice can choose Christ.
And Christ cannot be choice to anyone to whom He has not yet been made choice.
When He is made choice He becomes choice and so is choice; or to say the same thing, He is chosen.
This first act of the believer in which Christ is consciously chosen, is merely a consequence of his new mental preference which has been graciously granted to him by God.”

ARMINIAN ET BELIEF - It’s as if God says
“Unless you are lucky enough to find out about my son during this lifetime, and even if you are that lucky, if you don’t have the good sense to use your “free” will and cooperate with my son properly before you die, then I am going to raise you from the dead and I will sustain you alive in an inescapable state of eternal torment forever.”

My advice, don’t put your faith in your faith. Your faith may, and probably will be misplaced from time to time, especially if you are having faith in your self.
Put your faith in Jesus Christ instead, because even if He casts you into the lake of fire which is the second death it will achieve the age-during corrective chastisement that He has promised to everyone who needs it.

Butch Cassidy

To paraphrase what the Sundance Kid might say to Butch Cassidy during a theological discussion —
“You keep believing that God is going to sustain people alive in an inescapable state of everlasting suffering Butch. That’s what you’re good at.”

But if any reader has any desire to consider another point of view about what the Bible teaches then here is a great place to start.

UNIVERSAL SALVATION UNIVERSITY
richardwaynegarganta.com/universalsalvation.htm

THE GOSPEL FROM OUTER SPACE – ROBERT SHORT
“The gospel of love heard from the churches is at bottom a gospel at gunpoint. This gospel claims to speak of a great love, but only one step behind this “love” is an unspoken, or often very vocal great threat – the threat of eternity in “hell” if we refuse this love. What a travesty of love, even human love, not to mention God’s! For one would think that God’s love ought to be at least as great as what human beings are capable of. It is precisely the implied or expressed threat of eternal perdition that compromises the churches’ ‘gospel of love,’ and gives this ‘gospel’ the lie to ordinary people, and is in fact behind by far, most of atheism.

On the other hand, this is not the quality of mercy I see in God. I get the strong feeling of an infinite, unconditional, no-strings-attached love for all people. At the same time this love is all-powerful and sovereign. It is not so flimsy and pitifully weak that it can be finally frustrated or defeated by mere human whim or by meager man’s arrogant illusion called ‘free will.’ ”

CHARLES SLAGLE

Just like in the case of Charles Slagle, my sanity quite literally depends on rejecting the ET interpretation of the Bible.

If anyone on this forum feels the same way, the exposition/testimony of Charles will probably be a huge help to them like it was to me. During my 77 years of living I have not found any writing that has been more helpful than this one. Why not check it out?
ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE IN JESUS CHRIST
richardwaynegarganta.com/4Vi … vation.htm

You can Google up Charles Slagle and find many more good writings by him.
Just type in Charles Slagle

In my opinion the greatest of all manifestations of God’s grace in action in this world is
that anyone (Christian or Muslim) can believe that God will let anyone suffer forever and not go insane thinking about it.

If I were to become convinced that the Bible does teach ET, I would live out the rest of my life as an agnostic, trying to treat others the way I would like to be treated by them, and hoping for the best after I die, rather than claim to love a god who would let anyone suffer forever.

The idea that the Bible is the word of God is not important enough to me to try to embrace the idea that it teaches an endless-hell god. No amount of threatenings by ETers could possibly change my mind about that.

After thought:
If conscious eternal torment is true, why did God not repeatedly plaster warnings of it from Genesis to Malachi? A Calvinist would probably say, “Why bother. Their goose is cooked anyway since the non-Israelites were totally depraved and not among the elect. But how would a non-Calvinist (free-willer) answer that question. I wonder?

“SECOND CHANCE”

It is true that God doesn’t give anyone a second chance after they die.
But it is also true that God doesn’t even give anyone a first chance while they are still alive. God doesn’t save anyone by chance. But He will eventually save everyone on purpose.

CHOOSING WHAT IS CHOICE

People who don’t think salvation is 100% by God, not just 100% “provided” by God like to be in the hands of their own “free” will. That is where they feel most secure.

IMO, that is the most basic difference between ETers and URs.

Just like in the case of Lydia, and Saul of Tarsus, our cooperation to be saved is the result, not the cause, of God laying hold on us by His sovereign grace and causing Jesus to be “choice” in our heart.

The timing of the salvation of everyone is under God’s sovereign control.
We are saved when God wants us to be, no thanks to ourselves at all.

SELF RIGHTEOUSNESS DEBARRED

HIS ACHIEVEMENT ARE WE - James Coram
CHOOSING WHAT IS CHOICE
concordant.org/expohtml/HisAchie … nt009.html
“No one to whom Christ is not yet choice can choose Christ.
And Christ cannot be choice to anyone to whom He has not yet been made choice.
When He is made choice He becomes choice and so is choice; or to say the same thing, He is chosen.
This first act of the believer in which Christ is consciously chosen, is merely a consequence of his new mental preference which has been graciously granted to him by God.”

Repentance will occur when God lays hold on the sinner by His saving grace.

“Not you choose Me, but I choose you…” John 15:16
“Too often is salvation made a matter of the sinner’s choice. This sadly mars the full and clear apprehension of God’s love which it is intended to reveal. All active effort in redemption is the outflow of divine love, and is entirely on God’s side. All the sinner’s activity is a hindrance, He would choose anyone but God. His part is a passive or a negative one.

We were chosen by God in Christ before the disruption. Sin itself was subsequent to His choice of us. Hence, sin, either past or present, cannot affect God’s purpose for us, or our acceptance of His grace. He chooses, He calls, He glorifies. He does not give man his choice or a chance. He has the wisdom and the power to impel men to fall into line with His purpose no matter what their natural inclination may be.
All human experience confirms the divine declaration that He it is Who is operating in us to will as well as to work for the sake of His delight (Phil. 2:13).
Man can carry out his own will only so far as it accords with the
purpose of God. When men rage against God, He uses their wrath as far
as it is useful to His plans. The remainder of their wrath He
restrains.” -Snippet from the Concordant Commentary
(concordant.org/expohtml/Concorda … 4_John.htm)
“It is not of him who is willing, nor of him who is racing, but of God, the merciful.” –Verse 16. Verse 23 informs us that the vessels of mercy are made ready before for glory. Romans 8:28-30 further describes God’s working in those He chooses to enjoy life during the oncoming eons. Therefore, we read in Acts 13:48, “Now on hearing this, the nations rejoiced and glorified the word of the Lord, and they believe, whoever were set for life eonian.”

You might ask, “By whom were they set for eonian life?” God leaves no doubt in that regard; It is God’s choice in grace. The purpose of God remains as the choice of Him who is calling- Ro. 9:11. See also Ro. 11:5; Eph. 1:4; John 12:37-40.
This separation, or election, which God makes, is concerned with eonian salvation, during the present wicked eon and in the two oncoming, glorious eons. God chooses final and unending salvation for all universally after the eons have run their course. John 12:32; Ro. 11:32; 1 Cor. 15:20-28; Col. 1:15-20; Phil. 2:9-11; 1 Tim. 4:9-11.

If you cannot love an eternal torment god

For the first 500 years after Christ, universalism was the prevailing doctrine believed and taught by the Christian church.
These online books explain why and how this changed.
tentmaker.org/books/OriginandHistory.html
tentmaker.org/books/EarlyChristianView.html
tentmaker.org/books/Prevailing.html

Universalism The Prevailing Doctrine Of The Christian Church During Its First Five Hundred Years
tentmaker.org/books/Prevailing.html

The author, J.W. Hanson wrote “The purpose of this book is to present the evidence of the prevalence in the early centuries of the Christian church, of the doctrine of the final holiness of all mankind. The author believes that the following pages show that Universal Restitution was the faith of the early Christians for at least the First Five Hundred Years of the Christian era. He has aimed to present irrefragable proofs that the doctrine of Universal Salvation was the prevalent sentiment of the primitive Christian church.
The salient statements and facts in all which will be found in these pages show that the most and ablest of the early fathers found the deliverance of all mankind from sin and sorrow specifically revealed in the Christian Scriptures.”

And they were reading the Bible in its original language.

TRACING UNIVERSALIST THOUGHT THROUGH CHURCH HISTORY
Well known Christian church leaders who believed and taught Biblical universalism.
Including a separate list of famous people embracing Christian universalism.
tentmaker.org/tracts/Universalists.html

Don’t kid yourself. If anyone suffers forever JESUS IS DOING IT TO THEM
tentmaker.org/articles/savio … larity.htm

THE GOD THAT CALVINIST AND ARMINIAN ETERNAL TORMENTORS PROFESS TO LOVE

The eternal torment theology of the Arminian Christian relies on so-called “free will” and luck.

The god that Arminian eternal tormentors profess to love says to his fallen creatures

“Unless you are lucky enough to find out about my son during this lifetime, and even if you are that lucky, if you don’t have the good sense to cooperate with my son properly before you die, then I am going to raise you from the dead and I will sustain you alive in an inescapable state of eternal torment forever.”

The eternal torment theology of the Calvinist Christian relies on God alone, not “free will” at all. It is summed up by the word TULIP: Total depravity, Unconditional election, Limited atonement, Irresistible grace, and the Perseverance of the elect.

The god that Calvinistic eternal tormentors profess to love says to his fallen creatures

“I created most of you for the purpose of torturing you forever. However, I am going to choose a few of you undeserving ones to go to heaven where you will be happy forever.”
And then both the Arminian and Calvinistic eternal tormentors say that the feelings that they have for this god of theirs is “love.”

To read a description of eternal torment combination Calv-Arminianism see
ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE IN JESUS CHRIST – Charles Slagle
tentmaker.org/books/Absolute … hrist.html

This next url sums up the end result of all three
tentmaker.org/articles/savio … larity.htm

Without God’s sustaining power everyone would cease to exist.
So if anyone were to suffer forever, our all-powerful God (Who is Love in essence, not just loving) would be fully 100% responsible for it. We would have to conclude that any definition of the manifestation of “love-in-essence” includes eternally sustaining people alive in an inescapable state of suffering.

What a travesty; what a revolting definition of love it is that God, Who is love personified, would grant any creature a will so strong that they can choose themselves into an irreversible state of never ending suffering (Arminian), or they deserve to suffer forever just by being born into the human race (Calvinist)!

Thank God the Bible does not teach such an insane idea! Yes, God is just but He is not justice personified. However, God is Love personified. That is why He will temper all of His administrating of justice only to be for the good of the individual being judged.

Here is what the God that universal transformationists love and worship with complete abandon will do. He will complete the process of salvation for the first fruits of election, (the remnant chosen by grace), after the first resurrection. Then He will complete the process of salvation for the non-elect after the great white throne judgment. For some, it will include an experience in the lake of fire.

Jesus died on the cross and rose from the dead to guarantee that any necessary “kolasis aionian” (age-during corrective chastisement) will be 100% effective in changing wrong attitudes. All acts of sin have been forgiven for everyone. Attitudes cannot be forgiven. Attitudes must change. This is what the lake of fire which is the second death will do. It will last no longer than God sees is good for everyone involved.
tentmaker.org/articles/savio … e-Eby.html

THE ENTIRE CONCORDANT LITERAL TRANSLATION ONLINE

studybible.info/version/CLV

NOW IS “A” DAY OF SALVATION
(not “the” day of salvation)
auburn.edu/~allenkc/today.html

DEATH SHALL BE ABOLISHED - 1 Cor. 15:20-28

Argument:
“This only means that believers will never die again.”

RESPONSES

Bob Evely
I would simply suggest that these folks are ignoring the context of the 1 Corinthians 15 passage (ALL in Adam … ALL in Christ, etc) and the many other ALL passages in Scripture. It is a case where their minds are made up that only believers will ever be saved; so they find it necessary to place limitations on what the Scriptures actually say, lest their doctrines fall apart.

Tony Nungesser
Death is abolished for the believer AT HIS PRESENCE. In 1 Cor.15:25 death is abolished AFTER Christ hands over the kingdom to God and all sovereignty, authority and power are done away. Then the rest of mankind will have death abolished for them and only then.

Kenneth Larsen
For me, 1 Cor. 15:20-28 is where the abolition of death is best detailed. And the subject is clearly all mankind. Plus, it says plainly that it is the LAST enemy, clearly detailing the subjection of all which must occur BEFORE. And there are clearly still kings during the New Jerusalem eon, so human authorities have yet to be nullified; Christ’s mission isn’t complete. Rev. 21:24. Death will be abolished for all mankind in three stages -1 Cor. 15:22-24. Then there are verses like Romans 5:18, 19.

“For this was the Son of God manifested, that He should be annulling the acts of the Adversary.” 1 John 3:8b (CLV) That includes the act of leading Adam and Eve into the knowledge of good and evil. Christ was manifested to annul not only sin, but also death. For the second death to be endless would mean that the acts of the Adversary would never be annulled.

If only believers never die again, then death would be abolished when Christ returns, wouldn’t it? That would be the consummation or “end.” Why then is there the 1,000 years? Isn’t Satan an enemy? Yet the Bible says that death is the last enemy. Satan is still rebellious after the 1,000 years.

I would ask them, “When do you think death will be abolished?”

If they say, “When Christ returns”, I would ask, “And the events of
Rev. 20:7-15, do they occur after or before Christ’s second coming?”

If they say, “After”, I would ask them if they had read 1 Cor. 15:20-28 lately. I would encourage them to do so and to notice that death will be the last enemy, and God will abolish it. If they agree with that, I would ask them, how can death be abolished when Christ returns if Satan will later attack the saints; wouldn’t that mean that there are still enemies besides death in existence? Wouldn’t the fact that the nations will be deceived and join Satan in opposing God prove that God will still have many enemies at that time? I would point out that 1 Cor. 15:24-27 shows that Christ will give up His kingdom to God
the Father once all enemies are subjected and death is abolished. And I would mention one of the parallel passages in Mk. 12:36, which shows that Christ will be at God’s right hand UNTIL a certain point in time, which is detailed in 1 Cor. 15. Then I would point out how Rev. 22:1-3 shows clearly that the consummation of 1 Cor. 15:24, when Christ will surrender the throne to His Father, will not yet have arrived during the New Jerusalem eon.

My POV is that God would not name the lake of fire the second death, make that death permanent, and yet claim that death had been abolished. It simply doesn’t make sense to me. To argue that death being abolished only means that believers will never die again is
similar to saying that slums being abolished only means no new slums will be created, leaving the existing slums unchanged.

James Coram
The context has in view all mankind (not simply believers):
Death was long ago instituted (“to die, you shall be dying”); and yet
this institution which, at present, is very much still in effect, one
day, will be abolished.

concordant.org/expohtml/Huma … cor15.html
See article above on this point also, for the likeness/parallel I
draw between, on the one hand, slavery, and on the other, death.

Martin Zender
A snippet from The Really Bad Thing About Free Will (2006), pages
66-67, by Martin Zender:
“God is now conciliated to all mankind (II Corinthians 5:19). This
blessing has come to us through the blood of Christ’s cross
(Colossians 1:20). God no longer holds men’s offenses against them (II
Corinthians 5:19). This same blood will reconcile all to Himself, both
that in the heavens and that on earth (Colossians 1:20).
The cross saves everyone, but not all at once (I Corinthians
15:22-23). Jesus Christ is a ransom for all, but the testimony of it
will not be seen until the eras designated to show it (I Timothy 2:6).
God will one day be all and in all (I Corinthians 15:28). How can He
be that if billions of the all remain dead or tortured?
Paul speaks of a time called the consummation, when death is to be
abolished (I Corinthians 15:26; II Timothy 1:10). If there will one
day be no more death, then the time is coming when even the second
death will cease to be. At this time, those formerly captured by it
will be delivered into the life won for them by Christ on the cross.
With no more death, nothing remains but life. Some come to Christ
sooner, some come later. But eventually, all come.”

When is the Consummation?
Does Christ abolish death at His second coming? Definitely not, and
here’s the evidence:
“For He must be reigning until He should be placing all His enemies
under His feet. The last enemy is being abolished: death.” 1 Cor.
15:25, 26. Yet we know that death is cast into the lake of fire 1,000
years after Christ’s second coming. Rev. 20:14. And the lake of fire
is the second death. So to claim that death is abolished at the second
coming is untenable. First, Christ must be reigning until all His
enemies are subjected; then death will be abolished. Yet we know that
Satan will still be in rebellion against God at the end of the 1,000
years. Rev. 20:7-10. We’re also told that Christ will be reigning
until “He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father, whenever
He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power.
For He must be reigning until He should be placing all His enemies
under His feet.” 1 Cor. 15:24, 25. Yet we know that there will be
kings on the new earth, after the 1,000 years have ended- Rev. 21:24;
22:5. So it is obvious that all sovereignty and all authority will not
yet have been nullified, nor will death have been abolished. Rev.
21:8. 1 Cor 15:22-25: “For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also,
in Christ, shall all be vivified. Yet each in his own class: the
Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ’s in His presence;
thereafter the consummation, whenever He may be giving up the kingdom
to His God and Father, whenever He should be nullifying all
sovereignty and all authority and power.” All are dying in Adam, or
through Adam, in his act of disobedience at the tree of knowledge. All
are vivified (made immortal) in Christ, or through Christ, in His act
of obedience- the death of the tree or cross. But mankind isn’t all
vivified at once; we’re divided into classes. The first class is
Christ, when He rose from the dead. The second class is “those who are
Christ’s in His presence”. “Thereafter the consummation” of
vivification, for the third class remains; those who are not Christ’s
at His presence. They also died in Adam, and they are included in
vivification, as Paul clearly states in Ro. 5:18, 19. So we know there
will be kings on the new earth; all authority will not yet have been
nullified. We also know that the second death will still exist at that
time; death will not yet have been abolished. “And the Adversary who
is deceiving them was cast into the lake of fire and sulphur, where
the wild beast and where the false prophet are also. And they shall be
tormented day and night for the eons of the eons.” Rev. 20:10. So the
Adversary will obviously still live up to his title long after Christ
returns; he will still be in torment in the final eon, that of the new
earth. And death is not abolished until all is subject to Christ- 1
Cor. 15:25-27. From Rev. 2:26, 27 and 12:5 we know that Christ will be
shepherding all the nations with an iron club. This will occur after
His second coming- Rev. 19:15. When Christ returns, loud voices in
heaven will say, “The kingdom of this world became our Lord’s and His
Christ’s, and He shall be reigning for the eons of the eons!” Rev.
11:15. Therefore it is impossible that the second coming be “the
consummation, whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and
Father” 1 Cor. 15:24; Rev. 22:1-3. The consummation can only occur
after “the complement of the eras” described in Eph. 1:8-11; after the
eons of the eons; that is, after the 1,000 years and the final eon on
the new earth. Only then will death be abolished. Col. 1:20.

el•lip•sis
noun, grammar:
The omission from a sentence or other construction of one or more
words that would complete or clarify the construction.
Let’s examine two instances in the Bible where an ellipsis is used
with the Greek “eita” (thereafter).
In 1 Tim. 2:13 “for Adam was first molded, thereafter (eita) Eve…”
(ellipsis- “was molded”)
In 1 Cor. 15:22-24 “For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in
Christ, shall all be vivified. Yet each in his own class: the
Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ’s in His presence;
thereafter (eita) the consummation…” (ellipsis- “of the vivification
of all mankind”)
The “classes” or “orders” of vivification:
First, who is the subject; who will be vivified? 1 Cor. 15:22 “For
even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be
vivified.” The Greek and the English are clear; just as all are mortal
in, or through, Adam, so also, all will be immortal in, or through,
Christ. The subject of 1 Cor. 15:22 is all mankind.
Second, what is vivification? Galatians 3:21 confirms the link between
vivification and righteousness. Resurrection need not include
vivification. Jn. 5:21. To be raised to mortality is not vivification.
Third, the classes of vivification. The Greek for “class” is Strong’s
5001, tagma; from tasso 5021; something orderly in arrangement (a
troop), i.e. (figuratively) a series or succession: -order.
sacrednamebible.com/kjvstrongs/STRGRK50.htm
Class one of vivification: “the Firstfruit, Christ”. This occurred
when Christ rose from among the dead.
Class two of vivification: “thereupon (epeita) those who are Christ’s
in His presence”. This occurs at Christ’s second coming, and may
include multiple resurrections occurring around the end of the present
eon and the commencement of the impending eon (the “millennium”).
There are also those who will be vivified without being resurrected,
having never tasted death- 1 Thes. 4:17. This is further evidence that
resurrection is not the equivalent of vivification; virtually all
Christians agree that all believers will be vivified.
The Greek New Testament does not have punctuation. Many versions place
a period at the end of verse 23. In contrast, the Concordant version
places a semicolon, for the train of thought continues into verse 24:
“thereafter the consummation…”. The consummation or “end” of what?- of
the vivification of all mankind. Just as in Romans 5:18, 19, Paul’s
subject here is all mankind. And the final class remains; those who
are not Christ’s in His presence. They will be subject to judgments
and many will have their part in the lake of fire, which for them will
be the second death. Nevertheless, all God’s enemies will be subjected
to Christ, and then Christ will be subjected to God, that the Father
may be “All in all”. 1 Cor. 15:20-28. The final enemy to be abolished
is death, and God describes the lake of fire as “the second death”.
Therefore, we end our study with:
Class three of vivification: “our Savior, Christ Jesus, indeed,
abolishes death”. 2 Tim. 1:10. This occurs at the end of the eons.
“Now God is He, not of the dead, but of the living, for all, to Him,
are living.” Luke 20:38. (See also Ro. 4:17; 1 Tim. 6:13; Phil.
2:9-11; Col. 1:15-20; 1 Tim. 4:9-11 and 2:1-6.) In Luke 20:38, God
displays a sort of “ellipsis”; He barely mentions the sin and judgment
of the eons to focus prophetically on His goal, to be All in all.

DECRETIVE WILL

I think of myself as a theistic determinist. I believe that everything HAS to happen the way that it does, including all of our attempts to assist, or prevent it from happening.
Theologically this is called God’s decretive will, or that which MUST occur, in contrast to God’s preceptive will, which is what His creatures OUGHT to do, e.g. THE GOLDEN RULE, and choosing Jesus Christ.

I believe that God will eventually fit every individual into His master plan in a positive way that necessitates their unique temporary involvement in evil and suffering that will enable God to manifest, and glorify, and magnify the many facets of His character in a way that uniquely involves that person, and everyone else involved in that person’s life too.

THE INTERPLAY OF GOOD AND EVIL – RAY PRINZING
“God is sovereign, and He controls all the interaction of evil and good, and causes all to redound to His own glory. It is not – what was lost by the fall was to be regained by redemption, BUT by the interaction of FALL AND REDEMPTION, God achieves greater, wiser, nobler, and higher goals for everyone than by the Adamic race remaining in its pristine state.
Evil and good are synchronized to accomplish God’s will and purpose, so that the ultimate goal shall reveal all evil transformed back into good, and all negation cancelled out by GOOD. Evil is allowed for wise ends, and when these are secured it must cease to exist, for God will restore all things into good. HE controls all the interaction between evil and good until His purpose of the ages is fulfilled. Then shall God be All in all.”

DEMONS

THE TEACHING THAT COMES FROM DEMONS

THE ORIGIN AND HISTORY OF THE
Doctrine of Endless Punishment
BY THOMAS B. THAYER
tentmaker.org/books/OriginandHistory.html

DENY

Some people think that Matt. 10:33 means that deniers will never be saved.
But Peter denied Christ three times, Matt. 26:75, and so will all other deniers repent in due time.

DRAW / DRAG?
In John 12:32, in signifying by what death He was about to be dying (v.33), Jesus said, ‘And I, if I should be exalted out of the earth, shall be drawing all to Myself.’
It is not that “draw” means “drag;” it is rather that an agency which draws, is equally as effective as an agency which drags. When a man is dragged, he is moved contrary to his will; when a man is drawn, he is moved in correspondence to his will, according to the influences which cause him to choose as he does. Agencies which drag, determine the body; agencies which draw, determine the heart, from which spring the outflowings of life (Prov.4:23).

When one is “drawn in” to doing something, he is still caused to act as he does; he must still do what he, even if gently, is “drawn” to do–as much so as if he were “dragged” (“kicking and screaming”) into so doing. It is simply that an agency which “draws,” engages the will and instills the voluntary behavior which follows, in contradistinction to a power that merely compels outward acts–“dragging” them forth–without gaining the acquiescence of the will.
Thus we rejoice to know that while no one can come to Christ if ever the Father Who sends Him should not be drawing him (John 6:44), in due time, under God, Christ “shall be drawing all to Himself” (John 12:32). James Coram concordant.org/expohtml/Ques … .html#115a

It would be good to answer this question: When will Christ draw to Himself the multiplied millions who die without having once heard about the one true God? (This would include hundreds of millions of small children.) - Kenneth Larsen

Is God a Failure? - Eleanor Garrod

Now that’s a pretty poignant question. Or is it an insinuation? An inference? Or implication? Or is it truth, as many would have you believe? Have you ever heard a sermon by that title? I doubt if you have. But I’m certain you have heard many a sermon which has been riddled with such implications.
Allow me to rephrase the question: Have you ever heard a sermon stating that if you don’t accept Jesus, you’ll burn forever in hell? Ah, I knew I’d touch a raw nerve. You have, haven’t you? If you heard that God is going to lose so much as one individual to the devil forever, then God is a failure.
If you have heard that the heathen (who have never had an opportunity to hear of Jesus) will be tormented forever for not believing in Him, then you’ve heard that God is a failure. Click on “See More” to read the entire quote.
If you’ve heard that man’s puny will can withstand the omnipotent will of God, and that man’s will can paralyze God’s will, then you have heard that God is a failure.
If you’ve heard that the Adversary outsmarted God in the garden of Eden, if you’ve heard that God did not want Adam and Eve to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, then you’ve heard that God is a failure.
If you’ve ever heard anyone affirm that God will lose 95% of His created beings that He’s placed on planet earth, and will torment them forever, then you’ve clearly heard that God is a failure.
If the Good Shepherd is not willing that any should perish, and yet gets weary and gives up before He finds the last sheep that’s lost, then you know that God is a failure.
If no one can come to Jesus except the Father draws him, and if the Father - eventually - does not draw every single person, then God is a failure.
What is the response of your heart to the poised question: Is God a failure? Ah, my heart says, “Nay, a billion nays.” My heart has fallen in love with a God who does all things perfectly, and one day all will be made plain, and in the end He will become ‘All in All’ and for that day my heart does wait and meanwhile I rejoice and endure because I see Him, the invisible One.
By faith I see a Master Plan for the ages and beyond, and I know I am part of that plan, and for this I whisper, “Thank you, Jesus.” I sing a song to my Beloved, Hallelujah!
In Love with Him, Eleanor Garrod

Upcoming UR conference
theforgottengospel.com/