Death

[Tim]

Rev 2:11 …He that overcomes shall not be hurt of the second death. Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that has part in the first resurrection: on such the second death has no power… Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. Rev 21:8 …the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

1Cr 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

Rev 21:4 …there shall be no more death…

Although there is a second death, it appears that it will also be destroyed or katargeō

1) to render idle, unemployed, inactivate, inoperative
a) to cause a person or thing to have no further efficiency
b) to deprive of force, influence, power

2) to cause to cease, put an end to, do away with, annul, abolish
a) to cease, to pass away, be done away
b) to be severed from, separated from, discharged from, loosed from any one
c) to terminate all intercourse with one

Very simple argument for the affirmative: If the second death exist forever, then Rev 21:4 and 1Cr 15:26 are both a lie.

[RanRan]

Rev 2:11 …He that overcomes shall not be hurt of the second death. Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that has part in the first resurrection: on such the second death has no power… Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. Rev 21:8 …the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

1Cr 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

Rev 21:4 …there shall be no more death…

Although there is a second death, it appears that it will also be destroyed or katargeō

1) to render idle, unemployed, inactivate, inoperative
a) to cause a person or thing to have no further efficiency
b) to deprive of force, influence, power

2) to cause to cease, put an end to, do away with, annul, abolish
a) to cease, to pass away, be done away
b) to be severed from, separated from, discharged from, loosed from any one
c) to terminate all intercourse with one

Very simple argument for the affirmative: If the second death exist forever, then Rev 21:4 and 1Cr 15:26 are both a lie.

I take a very straightforward approach to this question.

Christ came to set the captives free from death - not to create new captives.
Christ redeemed everyone from death at the cross by taking everyone's sins away.
Everyone is resurrected which is proof of His redemption being universal.
Hell (the place of the death) is thus emptied and is then destroyed.

It's all Good News. If one spreads the Good News which advances His Kingdom here, one is rewarded in Heaven.
If one does not spread the Good News or spreads another gospel which hinders the advance of His Kingdom here, one is not rewarded but remains saved from death.

Too many people believe that they are only saved from death by believing that they are saved from death. But the universal resurrection should tell them that thinking is silly.

What they are saved from immediately by God's Grace and believing that Grace is salvation from BEING dead right now i.e. knowing that they are now 'in Christ' (as everyone is but don't know it, yet.)

That most people PREFER being dead, rather than being alive and aware, goes to show just how dead people actually are. But "Sleeper awake!" will be the universal call of the resurrection.

[Aaron37]

Ran.

Are you aware there are two different resurrections? One for the righteous? One for the wicked? Are you aware that they happen at two different times and go to two different places? Oh boy, can't wait to see your response. Lol.

[RanRan]

Ran.

Are you aware there are two different resurrections? One for the righteous? One for the wicked? Are you aware that they happen at two different times and go to two different places? Oh boy, can't wait to see your response. Lol.

Revelation, as far as I can tell, was written for Hal Lindsey (and others like him) to make money on. The only mystery about it is how it got included in the canon in the first place.

There's one resurrection. Hell is emptied and gets destroyed. End of story. Welcome to the real deal.

All that book brings is a certain tell-tale wild- eyed confusion amongst it's 'students' - where they usually stay to the exclusion of the New Testament.

[Aaron37]

Ran.

Again, Ran your response contradicts scripture and amazes me.

[RanRan]

Ran.

Again, Ran your response contradicts scripture and amazes me.

Well, it shouldn't. Christ spoke of one resurrection. THE resurrection of the dead. As did all the NT writers. Revelation contradicts all of them - because it is not scripture - at least, large portions of it were not written by John and that is enough reason to set it aside and let it gather dust in many Christian churches.

Do a search of the NT for the word 'resurrection'. You'll see what I mean. THE resurrection of dead suddenly becomes two at the end of Revelation. It comes out of nowhere - literally - because it's a fiction, it is not scripture.

[Aaron]

Revelation contradicts all of them - because it is not scripture - at least, large portions of it were not written by John and that is enough reason to set it aside and let it gather dust in many Christian churches.

Well I had no idea you held to this view, Ran! This could very well be the most shocking thing I've read on this forum so far!

[RanRan]

Revelation contradicts all of them - because it is not scripture - at least, large portions of it were not written by John and that is enough reason to set it aside and let it gather dust in many Christian churches.

Well I had no idea you held to this view, Ran! This could very well be the most shocking thing I've read on this forum so far!

Ain't it though! Imagine one Cross releasing all the captive dead and living at once! Shocking!

[Aaron]

Ain't it though! Imagine one Cross releasing all the captive dead! Shocking!

Well, I believe in one resurrection of all people to a glorious immortality while at the same time accepting the entirety of Revelation as inspired without (I think) doing violence to the text. One of my favorite "ultra-universalists," Thomas Whittemore, even wrote a commentary on the entire book (I would encourage you to read his introduction, in which he defends its inspiration): http://books.google.com/books?id=kBcUAA ... q=&f=false

But I am definitely intrigued by your view. Which portions of Revelation do you think were written by John? Or do you think it's impossible for us to know? And is this the only book of the Protestant Bible the canonicity of which you question?

[RanRan]

I am not holding some rogue view. Whole churches don't include Revelation in their Bible, other whole churches don't teach from it or allow it to be read in their service - like the Orthodox. That is intriguing, isn't it? A good part of the Church has either thrown it out completely or ignores the book.

Luther didn't want to include the book in his German Bible translation. Shocking!

It's always been THE book of the Montanists - nothing has changed there.

Anyone building a theology around Revelation needs their head examined, in my opinion.

[Melchizedek]

Well, I did know that Revelation has historically been a hotly contested book as to it's canonicity. So much so that it almost didn't make it.

It's interesting to know that there are still whole churches/ groups who disavow it's canonicity.

Anywhere I can go to read some good arguments as to why it shouldn't be considered canon, Ran?

[Alexamenos Kasneron]

Revelation-a book that sets the left hemisphere of the brain against the right hemisphere of the brain, in my opinion. It seemingly combines and juxtaposes dream like symbolism with less abstract concepts. That's how I see it, at least. As for the death question. I have no conclusive answer for that.

[atHisfeet]

There is A RESURRECTION of both the just and the unjust and HIS NAME is Jesus Christ.

All "in Adam" WERE DEAD in sin (this is the first death.... for if one died for all then were all dead).

By the blood of the cross all men have now been baptized into THE DEATH of Jesus Christ (this is "the second death"... TWICE DEAD, plucked up by the roots).

But.... having been planted together in the likeness OF HIS DEATH, we shall be also in the likeness OF HIS RESURRECTION.

For HE is THE FIRST-fruits of them that slept and blessed and holy is he that hath part in THE FIRST RESURRECTION, as it is by knowing the power OF HIS RESURRECTION that one passed FROM DEATH UNTO LIFE - for on such THE SECOND DEATH HAS NO POWER - as HE HAS THE KEYS OF DEATH AND OF HELL and THROUGH HIM death has been destroyed, being swallowed up OF LIFE.

my 2 cents.

[Aaron37]

athisfeet.

you said: By the blood of the cross all men have now been baptized into THE DEATH of Jesus Christ (this is "the second death"... TWICE DEAD, plucked up by the roots).

Aaron37: All men are in Christ by believing and receiving Jesus' finished work on the cross.

[RanRan]

All men are in Christ by believing and receiving Jesus' finished work on the cross.

All men are in Christ because all men ARE in Christ. He was resurrected and they will be resurrected. He redeemed everyone from death. He forgave everyone. They are all reborn into life again, not to destroy THEM, but to destroy death itself.

You think some bring death into the resurrection - you say you are without sin - but we know and you should know that is not true. An imputed or infused righteousness is not your righteousness, and while that may explain the release from death for everyone - it does not explain the perfection or perfecting of the resurrected themselves.

You will be salted with fire - that fiery refinement will perfect us. We cannot humble (change) ourselves. You condemn others to hell for not doing what you cannot do yourself.

I do not believe that any human being on this side of the veil could withstand THAT salting and live. We're simply not made for it here - but we are made for it. Let God be God in all this - He doesn't need your approval or acceptance to put you through it because you think you are without sin, when that thought may be the first to go...

Pride and hypocrisy will never enter Heaven. In all this you will not lose your rewards for advancing His kingdom - no one will. Be of good cheer and thank God for allowing you to advance His kingdom - it's a great honor, as imperfectly as you/we/them may do it.

[John]

I do not believe that any human being on this side of the veil could withstand THAT salting and live. We're simply not made for it here - but we are made for it.

That a damn good statement Ran. You could take this one sentence, into some pretty deep circles:

We're simply not made for it here - but we are made for it

As an aside you ever see what salt does to a slug?

[atHisfeet]

athisfeet.

you said: By the blood of the cross all men have now been baptized into THE DEATH of Jesus Christ (this is "the second death"... TWICE DEAD, plucked up by the roots).

Aaron37: All men are in Christ by believing and receiving Jesus' finished work on the cross.

All men are in Christ because God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself, making one blood of all nations, creating ONE NEW MAN.

Christ said "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me" and we know that "for to this end Christ ~both~ ((DIED AND ROSE)), and ((REVIVED)), that he might be Lord ~both~ of THE DEAD and LIVING".

ALL are "in Christ" both THE DEAD (those who sleep, still walking in darkness, IN THE NIGHT, waiting for His appearing) and THE LIVING (those who are "awake", knowing the power OF HIS RESURRECTION, having entered into THE DAY of the Lord).

We all HAVE BEEN baptized into His death and we SHALL then also know the likeness of His resurrection... every man in His own order, to be testified in due time.

[Aaron37]

athisfeet.

you said: We all HAVE BEEN baptized into His death and we SHALL then also know the likeness of His resurrection... every man in His own order, to be testified in due time.


Aaron37: You are saved by grace through faith. Not by grace alone. Not by faith alone. Grace through faith. Grace doesn't do anything for us alone. However, when you recieve that grace and mix it with faith, God's power is released to make salvation a reality in your life. Biblical Salvation comes by grace through faith. To be "in Christ" comes by a positive reponse of faith to appropriate what God has already done by grace.

[atHisfeet]

Aaron37,

I do not disagree that faith is required. But whose faith? It is the faith OF CHRIST that saves us.

[Aaron37]

athisfeet.

There is a human faith and a supernatural, God kind of faith. Human faith is based on physical things that we can see, taste, hear, smell, or feel. God's kind of faith believes independently of physical circumstances ( Rom. 4:17, ). To receive God's gift of salvation, we have to use this supernatural, God kind of faith which isn't limited by our five senses. This is because, to be saved, we must believe for things which we can't see or feel. We haven't seen God or the devil. We haven't seen Heaven or Hell. Yet we have to believe that all these things exist. Human faith can't believe what it can't see.

Man is so destitute that he can't even believe the gospel on his own. To receive God's gift of salvation, we have to receive the supernatural, God kind of faith first. Where does this faith come from? How do we get it? Romans 10:17 says, "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." God's Word contains His faith. As we hear the Word of God about our salvation, God's faith comes so that we can believe the good news of our salvation. We actually use God's faith to get saved.

Man can resist this gift of faith and remain lost.