Hard Determinists can refer to free will existing just as Compatibilists do. [Does that, then, make them Compatibilists ?] In fact not only have i done so recently in this thread, i even one-upped the Compatibilists, and let dogs have freewill, too.

Concordant.org seem to be hard determinists, yet they affirm:

“Due to common misconception, one might well suppose that only the proponent of free will believes that men do whatever they want, according to their own choice or voluntarily. Yet these are our convictions as well, and are concepts which are fully in accord with our teaching. The fact that we act according to our own choice, and, had we chosen to do so, could have acted differently than we did, is not at issue and is acknowledged by all.” [by James Coram] concordant.org/expositions/his-a … ice-deity/

In the interests of presenting information, I found this layman’s article informative:

Soft Determinism Explained

P.S. Please also note the related links - near the bottom (for fatalism and hard determinism).

That right there is a penetrating question, qaz.
The Westminster Creed tries to get around it by what is tecnically called ‘gobbledegook’ - God may ordain the evil that men do, but in no way is He responsible for it. Exactly how that can be, is exactly the question.

I am not surprised. I get a lot of this around Xmas time. Sometimes I am even greeted, “Hello Santa!” But I reply, “Oh no, I’m not Santa. I’m his son.”

In the same way it is fair & righteous to “punish” a dog when it misbehaves that it may learn, be disciplined, trained, act properly, etc

The Greek word often translated “punishment” at Mt.25:46 can mean chastisement or correction.

Whom God loves, He chastens, the Bible says.

Unsaved children cannot help but misbehave, for they are slaves of sin. Is it unfair for parents to “punish” them. No, it is wise & caring.

Whoever spares the rod hates their children, but the one who loves their children is careful to discipline them. (Prov.13:24)

Perhaps qaz’s question was a little different, though? I took it him asking:

1. If God ordains that a person does an evil activity and then
2. Punishes (or Corrects!, I would add) the person for that ordained action then
3. We have an absurd situation.
   Which I pointed out, has a non-answer in the Westminster Creed.

It’s different with animals - we are not making them do something and then punishing or correcting them for it. They would not understand.

Was it unfair of God to ordain the nailing to a cross of His innocent perfect Son?

It pleased God to bruise & crush Him (Isa.53:10).

I agree qaz but the same could be asked from the other way. IF we have free will, why would God give us this incredible gift that separates us from the animals and trees and all of the rest of earthly creation and then (using the vernacular of evangelicals) if you do not believe the right thing or say the right prayer or belong to the proper denomination, you are destined to eternal damnation or may be if we can slice it a different way, PUFF, you are annihilated.

Please, don’t say that I am trying to say that we can get away with doing any crazy thought that comes in our heads, but FWIW the OT laws kind of drew an outline of what God was wanting from his people at the time. The ‘law’ was given in an historical sense to Israel, but the aftershock was felt throughout the western world. The problem is in deciphering how much of the scripture has to do with us?

O - whatever God ordains is good and right. My point was only about the incongruency between ordaining that a man sin, and then punishing the man for it. That’s all.

For God has imprisoned everyone in disobedience so he could have mercy on everyone. (Rom.11:32).

Punishment, discipline, chastisement, correction is related to God’s mercy. In light of Christ’s death for mankind, it would be sinful of God if He didn’t punish/correct humanity, and just left us to rot in our sins. Far from punishment being unfair, it is the most righteous, just and loving thing He could do, though none of us deserve it. We don’t deserve to exist or deserve the mortal life that He has freely blessed human beings with. Let alone to live an immortal life full of endless blessings.

“God is the Maker of good and the Creator of evil (Isa.45: 7). And, He is just in all His ways, and kindly in all His doings (Psa.145:17). To the illuminated believer, when he learns of God’s wisdom and perceives His purpose, this becomes evident even in those things which are so terrible in themselves. It is not at all sinful for God to create those evils which are men’s sins. Rather than this being wrong, in light of evil’s necessary yet salutary ministry for permanent and universal good, it would be wrong were He to fail to do so.”

concordant.org/expositions/his-a … nt-are-we/

Allrighty, we disagree. What a surprise on this Forum.

I have posted my butt off about this subject over the years, so I reckon I’ll just let it go at that.

Peace to you, and to all of us.

If it were not for the bible, we would have no way to resolve this issue. People only assume free will from appearances. The mechanism driving behavior is hidden within a black box, which is why classical behaviorism only studied observable behavior. Where in the bible is there an explicit statement supporting free will? It seems nobody who supports the concept can produce one, while there are many statements in scripture which demonstrate there is no such thing. It’s simply a case of people waning to believe what’s simply not found in the bible. I can only conclude that God has hidden the simple truth of His absolute sovereignty from them. I do think it’s something that needs to be acknowledged. It’s grace that allows one to do this.

Dave, stay cool

Well horan, you never answered me: [A Short Bible Case for Universalism-feedback)

So lets get down to the rub…

Horan _ That bone has been picked here before, and no-ones mind has ever been changed.
God’s sovereignty is what it is; what it means takes a bigger mind than yours and yes even mine. to properly understand.

Let us not be too hasty in judging another Person’s servant.

Remember, when I say this?

I said that God would tell us who is right - at the end of time. This might be sooner then we think

The man whose biblical doomsday claim has some nervously eyeing Sept. 23

Well, today’s story in USA Today - gives me hope:

The world is going to end - just probably not Saturday

The article says…However…We can die from nuclear war, grant asteroid, climate change, over population, black hole, super nova, global pandemic biological weapons and aliens.

But it leave out one important element The Zombie apocalypse (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zombie_apocalypse)

Unless it falls under global pandemic or biological weapons?

And everyone here thinks, free will vs no free will (or some combination of the two) - is the worst thing plaguing us

Yes, that’s how Isaiah 53:10 reads in the later Masoretic Hebrew text.

However, the Greek Septuagint Old Testament from which the New Testament writers quoted, seems to say almost the opposite:

I can only conclude that God has hidden the simple truth of His absolute sovereignty from them.

A King can be sovereign without meticulously controlling every choice man makes. He can but he need not so i think man has limited free will subject to God’s Will.
There is no flatout statement supporting free will in scripture but there are many instances where man is encouraged to make the right choice. That’s what people mean by free will, the ability to choose.

The option to obey or not is indicative of choice i.e., a free will to decide either way. To say Scripture doesn’t support this is laughable…

Davo - You nailed it!!