Hebrews 10:28-29

Arguments/positions in defense of Evangelical Universalism.

Hebrews 10:28-29

Postby Origen; » Sat Jun 10, 2017 3:01 pm

Hebrews speaks of those who reject Christ as deserving a "sorer" punishment than death by Moses' law, i.e. stoning:

10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Stoning to death is not a very "sore" or long lasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed the wicked would suffer endless torments in fire, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is a sadist for all eternity.

Comments? Agree or disagree.
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Re: Hebrews 10:28-29

Postby Paidion » Sat Jun 10, 2017 3:42 pm

Agree. I believe the following to be a correct translation of 2 Peter 2:9

The Lord knows how to deliver the devout out of trial, but to reserve the unrighteous for a day of judgment to be corrected.
(2 Peter 2:9)
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Re: Hebrews 10:28-29

Postby Origen; » Sat Jun 10, 2017 6:55 pm

Paidion wrote:Agree. I believe the following to be a correct translation of 2 Peter 2:9

The Lord knows how to deliver the devout out of trial, but to reserve the unrighteous for a day of judgment to be corrected.
(2 Peter 2:9)


That seems quite similar to the CLNT:

9 the Lord is acquainted with the rescue of the devout out of trial, yet is keeping the unjust for chastening in the day of judging,

I wonder if this suggests how long they will be being "corrected"? A day? Sometimes a "day" can be 1000 years to the Lord.

Some Jews thought the unjust would not be punished more than a maximum of 12 months, if i recall.
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Re: Hebrews 10:28-29

Postby Paidion » Sun Jun 11, 2017 10:38 am

Interesting! The translation I quoted was my own, based on the knowledge of Hellenistic Greek that I picked up in over three years of formal study, and many subsequent years of personal study.

I don't recall having previously noticed that the Concordant translation of that verse is similar.
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Re: Hebrews 10:28-29

Postby Origen; » Mon Jun 12, 2017 10:37 am

Paidion wrote:Interesting! The translation I quoted was my own, based on the knowledge of Hellenistic Greek that I picked up in over three years of formal study, and many subsequent years of personal study.

I don't recall having previously noticed that the Concordant translation of that verse is similar.


Did you attend a Bible college for those three years?

If only Koine Greek or Biblical Hebrew (or even Latin) were offered in high school in the early 1970's. Back then French was compulsory. Later one could opt for Spanish or German instead.
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Re: Hebrews 10:28-29

Postby Paidion » Mon Jun 12, 2017 11:06 am

My first exposure to Hellenist Greek (koine Greek, "New Testament" Greek) was at a Bible School that I attended for one year at the ages of 20.
At St. John's College, a part of the University of Manitoba (where I received a B.Sc. degree with a major in mathematics and a minor in philosophy), I took first year Greek again (language learning is not one of my strengths). I also took second year Greek at St. John's. After that I took a summer refreshment course at a Bible College that actually represented a full year of study. Most of my learning was done independently in subsequent years.
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Re: Hebrews 10:28-29

Postby Origen; » Thu Jun 15, 2017 11:16 am

Does Hebrews 10:28-29 also provide a case against endless annihilation?

If the writer of Hebrews believed the wicked would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated out of existence, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine who abandons forever the beings He created in His image & likeness so easily.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
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Re: Hebrews 10:28-29

Postby davo » Thu Jun 15, 2017 9:18 pm

Origen; wrote:Does Hebrews 10:28-29 also provide a case against endless annihilation?

    :lol: I should imagine basic grammar does… “endless annihilation” is an oxymoron. :lol:
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Re: Hebrews 10:28-29

Postby Paidion » Fri Jun 16, 2017 4:51 pm

Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses. How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has spurned the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace? (Hebrews 10:28-29)


Origen, I don't think this passage addresses annihilation—endless or otherwise. What it seems to be saying is that if those who broke the Mosaic law deserved to die without mercy, then those who spurn the Son of God deserve even worse.

The next two verses seem to explain something:

For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine; I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.” It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.


The word translated as "vengeance" might better be translated as "judgment." As I once heard a Christian leader say, "All of God's judgments are remedial." So God will make all things right some day, by correcting the rebels. This correction may have to be quite severe in some cases. God's correction can be a thing to be feared—just as a child may fear the correction of his earthly father, even though he knows his father is loving and kind.
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Re: Hebrews 10:28-29

Postby Origen; » Sun Jun 18, 2017 2:34 am

davo wrote:
Origen; wrote:Does Hebrews 10:28-29 also provide a case against endless annihilation?

    :lol: I should imagine basic grammar does… “endless annihilation” is an oxymoron. :lol:


Did i coin a new phrase? I'm wondering how i came up with it. I recall speaking with JW's who believe when a person dies they essentially cease to exist. They are no more, obliterated, annihilated. Until the resurrection when God, in JW theology, re-creates them from His memories & the dust of the earth. Then, for the wicked, He judges and annihilates them again, i.e. second death. Only this time it is permanent, endless. Hence endless annihilation.

The first entry on a search engine brings up this definition of "annihilation":

"complete destruction or obliteration.
"the threat of global annihilation" "

And from Webster's:

a : to cause to cease to exist : to do away with entirely so that nothing remains
b : to destroy a considerable part of Bombs annihilated the city. The enemy troops were annihilated.
c : to defeat overwhelmingly : rout annihilated the visitors 56–0

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/annihilate

The doctrine of annihilationism:

"Annihilationism (also known as extinctionism or destructionism[1]) is a belief that after the final judgment some human beings will be totally destroyed so as to not exist, or that their consciousness will be extinguished,[2] rather than suffer everlasting torment in hell (often synonymized with the lake of fire)."

"Annihilationism is directly related to the doctrine of conditional immortality, the idea that a human soul is not immortal unless it is given eternal life. Annihilationism asserts that God will eventually destroy the wicked, leaving only the righteous to live on in immortality. Some annihilationists (e.g. Seventh-day Adventists) believe God's love is scripturally described as an all-consuming fire[3] and that sinful creatures cannot exist in God's presence. Thus those who elect to reject salvation through their free will are eternally destroyed because of the inherent incompatibility of sin with God's holy character. Seventh-day Adventists posit that living in eternal hell is a false doctrine of pagan origin, as the Wicked will perish as the Bible says in the Lake of fire.[4][5][6][7] Jehovah’s Witnesses believe that there can be no punishment after death because the dead cease to exist.[8]

Annihilationism stands in contrast to both the traditional and long-standing belief in eternal torture in the lake of fire, and the belief that everyone will be saved (universal reconciliation or simply "universalism")."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annihilationism

In often discussing the destiny of mankind i encounter those who refer to Scriptures that speak of "destruction" in support of their view of Annihilationism. I point out that even when people are destroyed, such as those of Sodom, that does not mean they are endlessly destroyed or support the theory of Annihilationism, since they will be restored to life again at their resurrection (in the case of Sodom). For Annihilationism to be proven true from the Scriptures, Annihilationists must prove not only that at least one person is annihilated, but that it is an annihilation from which they never come back, i.e. endless annihilation ;
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Re: Hebrews 10:28-29

Postby Origen; » Sun Jun 18, 2017 3:01 am

Paidion wrote:
The word translated as "vengeance" might better be translated as "judgment." As I once heard a Christian leader say, "All of God's judgments are remedial." So God will make all things right some day, by correcting the rebels. This correction may have to be quite severe in some cases. God's correction can be a thing to be feared—just as a child may fear the correction of his earthly father, even though he knows his father is loving and kind.


To God i say, "Bring it on, tough guy. I fear nothing."

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Re: Hebrews 10:28-29

Postby davo » Sun Jun 18, 2017 4:27 am

Origen; wrote:I recall speaking with JW's who believe when a person dies they essentially cease to exist. They are no more, obliterated, annihilated. Until the resurrection when God, in JW theology, re-creates them from His memories & the dust of the earth.

    Interesting… I’ve heard something similar around this board too. :o

As for “annihilation” — I see that as touching ONLY the physicality of man; IOW it speaks ONLY to the cessation of one temporal life… nothing more and nothing less. As I see it… it is used in Scripture with regards to certain divine judgment/punishments, but again has NOTHING to do with postmortem existence, or the lack thereof, i.e., it is purely pertinent to this realm of existence — and then the lack thereof :lol:
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Re: Hebrews 10:28-29

Postby Paidion » Sun Jun 18, 2017 1:25 pm

Just trying to understand your thinking, Davo. Here is what I think you are saying (if not, please explain what you do mean). I am actually writing more than what you said in order to make it understandable to myself:

The physical human being is annihilated at death. But he has a "spirit" or "soul" that is non-physical, and is separate from his physical body, though it inhabits the body as long as the person lives. This non-physical spirit cannot die or be destroyed. It is the real "person." As a pure spirit, one continues to live a conscious existence post mortem, forever.
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Re: Hebrews 10:28-29

Postby davo » Sun Jun 18, 2017 6:08 pm

Paidion wrote:Just trying to understand your thinking, Davo. Here is what I think you are saying (if not, please explain what you do mean). I am actually writing more than what you said in order to make it understandable to myself:

The physical human being is annihilated at death. But he has a "spirit" or "soul" that is non-physical, and is separate from his physical body, though it inhabits the body as long as the person lives. This non-physical spirit cannot die or be destroyed. It is the real "person." As a pure spirit, one continues to live a conscious existence post mortem, forever.

Nah I’m not saying any of that, as in, you’re extrapolating beyond what I mean.

The ‘annihilationist’ doctrine is pertinent to the postmortem position — my understanding of “destruction” or “annihilation” stops at the border of physical life, period. Thus to say a… “physical human being is annihilated at death” is to have the cart before the horse, IOW… death is the annihilation of one’s physicality AND, and this is important… said annihilation or destruction as I see such in scripture are reflections of divine judgement executed upon a certain person/people. Thus *annihilation/destruction* as I use it is in kind with *judgement* in this life and doesn’t venture into any implications beyond the veil of death.

There are way too many examples of such destruction/annihilation facing the wicked, unrighteous or persecuted, but here are just a few…
Gen 6:17 And behold, I Myself am bringing floodwaters on the earth, to destroy from under heaven all flesh in which is the breath of life; everything that is on the earth shall die.
Gen 18:23 And Abraham came near and said, “Would You also destroy the righteous with the wicked?
Est 3:13 And the letters were sent by couriers into all the king’s provinces, to destroy, to kill, and to annihilate all the Jews, both young and old, little children and women, in one day,…

IOW… it is my understanding that annihilation speaks of the comprehensive nature of critical or negative judgement i.e., its totality.
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Re: Hebrews 10:28-29

Postby Paidion » Mon Jun 19, 2017 9:51 am

Thus to say a… “physical human being is annihilated at death” is to have the cart before the horse, IOW… death is the annihilation of one’s physicality.


Actually, that's all I meant by the statement. I suppose I would have unambiguously expressed your view, if I had worded it,“a physical human being is annihilated by death”
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