The Evangelical Universalist Forum

On Preterism, the Second Coming and Hell

Nope. I wasn’t making a statement of my own in any way. I was only interpreting the two cartoons that I posted, according to the contrary messages that the sign-holders were giving.

Do you then believe those drowned in the flood where eternally damned and outside of God’s grace?
Do you also believe Anias and Saphyra where eternally damned and outside of God’s grace?

Like the ancient’s of the flood Ananias Sapphira paid the temporal price for their really bad choice i.e., the loss of their lives, period. That does not IMO equate to being “damned” temporarily or endlessly beyond THIS LIFE… their untimely deaths WAS the “judgement” they suffered.

Again… according to your theology “All are already justified in Christ” – what Scriptural evidence does your position provide showing that ONCE justified in Christ postmortem punishment STILL prevails? – what texts, NOT arguments BUT texts?

In the context of ‘The Revelation’ – thus the last days period of the OC… those who “overcame” imbibed of the rewards in the parousia associated with faithfulness and or martyrdom.

The key point upon which my question is asked, that being relative to the justified does… “postmortem punishment STILL prevails?”
This cannot be avoided and needs answering :exclamation:

Luke 16 - a man is punished in Hades after he died and was buried, before the cross.
Revelation 20:4-6 - the wicked dead remain not resurrected in Hades, after the cross, yet future from 2016.
Revelation 20:13-14 - the wicked dead are extracted from Hades, after the cross, at the commencement of glorious eternity.

Hi jeff@dgjc.org

The Lazarus story is about Israel, about a people about to be judged. The use of ‘Father Abraham’ and the ending of ‘let them look to Moses and the Prophets for they will not believe one raised from the dead’ is obviously a parable for the ones Christ came for… notably the stubborn Israelites. (I can’t help but think Dickens might have had this scripture in mind when working on his famous work.)

Johns Revelation is just that, the revelation of what Christ did. Not what he was going to do. Through Israel all have been reconciled. The Redeemer has arrived. God has done what the prophets have for ever been prophesying about.

I thought that since this thread is a bit old, I would quote Mr. Beck’s original post.

Hope you enjoy.

Band on the money he got that right!

Lk 16 is a parable and NOT a theological breakdown of postmortem existence pre-cross.

Rev 20:4-6 says NONE of that.

So the logic you’re running with has the bulk of humanity suffering torturous torments in hades until as you put it “the commencement of glorious eternity” – so the longer the Parousia is delayed, delayed,delayed the longer God gets to “minister” (cough) anguish and pain upon the justified no less, because according to you postmortem punishment still prevails. WHAT A MESS! :blush:

No. I understand there to be punishment in Hades, governed by Christ’s loving hand. I never said it was torturous torments for the entire time. Though of course the the Rich man described it as agony. Just because I agree with some of the non-preterist and partial-preterist camp, please do not assume I have bought their whole party line. In the case of the punishments in Hades I Peter 3:18 - 4:6 points to post-mortem salvation as well.

Here are some questions I would have for you…

  1. You seem angry in the discussion, simply declaring that Luke 16 is a parable without any consideration to the arguments that is it not a parable. For example Revelation 20 explains that people are removed from Hades. Is that then also a parable?

  2. How you explain Revelation 20:4-5?

  3. How do you explain 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18?

  4. Do you believe Jesus physically ascended in Acts 1? Physically descended in 70AD?

  5. What is the beginning and end of the 1000 years in your model of understanding?

Just for the record, I also believe that Jesus ‘came’ in judgment in 70 AD, but I also believe his second coming physically is still future.

I’m not “angry” though a little peeved… you clearly and blatantly say “All are already justified in Christ.” I know what Paul CLEARLY says about the justified being glorified – I simply want you to give the scripture that says “the justified” experience post-mortem punishment in hades – which is what you allege. I’m not interested in cryptic interpretations, plain text would do.

Hi Jeff,

What do you think these verses mean?

Thanks

Seems a little unfair to so easily reject my understanding and then not answer my question. Oh well I am over it already.

I do agree that Christ ‘came’ in judgment upon Jerusalem in 70ad to punish the unbelieving Jews who crucified the Messiah, as Christ prophesied in Scripture.

However, I do not believe that was his second coming in the flesh. I understand passages like Acts 1:11, Revelation 20:4, and 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 to be speaking about the return of Christ as reigning king in the flesh, at the beginning of the Millennial Kingdom on this earth.

Some of my understanding might sound like Scofield dispensationalism, however, that is not where I am coming from. I best fit into what Millard Erickson calls historical dispensationalism. This view recognizes the 70ad judgment, acknowledges a future Millennial reign, but skips some of the curious Scofieldisms. Erickson would propose that the rapture at the return of Christ does not take Christians up into Heaven, but we meet him in the air and then descend to reign with him during the 1,000 years.

Erickson’s book, “A Basic Guide to Eschatology” is a good read even if you find you do not agree with him. He is not a restorationist, but that does not detract from his good observations.

Ok, now how do you explain 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18?

Jeff it also “seems a little unfair” that you demand answers to questions and for the most part get them, but then refuse to answer a basic question based off what you have clearly stated; so let me repeat…

Apologies IF I’ve missed the scripture/s plainly stating this… point me to where you are on this.

Forgive me if I sounded impatient. I thought I already answered that earlier.

Did you read my article?

Hi Jeff,
I’ll be your huckleberry… Oh I think Randy covered that in another thread.

No, honestly, I’ll put my 2 cents worth in as a bit how I see that scripture. I will admit there are many out there who have a much solider grasp of the topic than me :smiley: :smiley:

Jeff you said,
“I do agree that Christ ‘came’ in judgment upon Jerusalem in 70ad to punish the unbelieving Jews who crucified the Messiah, as Christ prophesied in Scripture.”

So the first question is how many times (in scripture) does it say Christ will return?

If we look at:

2 Thessalonians 2:1-2 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,

We see that whatever they are expecting is not an fleshly earth changing event. So Paul’s is not saying look out the door and see for yourself, for if they were expecting an apocalypse in the fleshly sense, he could very well have said just that.

Matthew 16:27-28 "For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works. 28 “Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.”

I take this as Jesus talking about his second coming and he obviously speaks of some who are standing right there will be alive when this ‘return’ happens.

So if we believe these Mathew verses, we will have to adjust our lenses (way we look at scripture) to figure out what 1 thes 4:13-18 is speaking of.

We see in:

1 Thessalonians 5:1-4 But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. 2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief.

So stuff is happening and things are getting close. But what ever is going on, they are having to ask questions… (did it happen, is it happening?)

Matthew 17:10-12 And His disciples asked Him, saying, “Why then do the scribes say that Elijah must come first?” 11 Jesus answered and said to them, "Indeed, Elijah is coming first and will restore all things. 12 “But I say to you that Elijah has come already, and they did not know him but did to him whatever they wished. Likewise the Son of Man is also about to suffer at their hands.” 13 Then the disciples understood that He spoke to them of John the Baptist.

Malachi 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet Before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD.

So now we come to our text. You have already said you agree that Christ ‘came’ in judgment upon Jerusalem in 70ad to punish the unbelieving Jews who crucified the Messiah, as Christ prophesied in Scripture."

I will also assume you are talking about Matthew chpt 24, in regards to that.

There is an interesting comparison I found that compares our Mat verses with our 1 thes verses:

1 Thessalonians 4:15-18 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first (resurrection). 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

A comparison between 1 Thessalonians 4-5 and Matthew 24 is fascinating.

  1. Christ Himself Returns Matt. 24:30 I Thess. 4:16
  2. From Heaven Matt. 24:30 I Thess. 4:16
  3. With a Shout Matt. 24:30 (in power) I Thess. 4:16
  4. Accompanied by Angels Matt. 24:31 I Thess. 4:16
  5. With Trumpet of God Matt. 24:31 I Thess. 4:16
  6. Believers Gathered Matt. 24:31 I Thess. 4:17
  7. In Clouds Matt. 24:30 I Thess. 4:17
  8. Time Unknown Matt. 24:36 I Thess. 5:1-2
  9. Will Come as a Thief Matt. 24:43 I Thess. 5:2,4
  10. Believers Unaware of Impending Judgment Matt. 24:37-39 I Thess. 5:3
  11. Judgment Comes as Travail upon Expectant Mother Matt. 24:8 I Thess. 5:3
  12. Believers to Watch Matt. 24:42 I Thess. 5:4
  13. Warning Against Drunkenness Matt. 24:49 I Thess. 5:7

So I would say whatever Paul is saying, he is merely re telling what the lord said through the Olivet discourse.

The reform preacher R C Sproul even says:

Dr. R.C. Sproul and other scholars propose a third way of interpreting Matthew 24:1–35, which argues that “the substance of the Olivet Discourse was fulfilled in AD 70” (The Last Days According to Jesus, p. 158). Our studies to come will advocate this approach. The main advantage of this view is that it takes seriously the time-frame references found in the Olivet Discourse. It also focuses on the context of the discourse — our Lord’s prediction of the fall of the temple (Matt. 24:2) — providing a coherent answer to the question as to when these things will take place (v. 3), that is, when Jerusalem and its temple will be destroyed

I think, just as Paul all along taught the gentile churches, we are talking about an age ending and a new one unfolding, in the spiritual sense.

Just a humble thought. :smiley:

You are right - I did. But I’ll refresh everyone’s memory :exclamation: :exclamation: :laughing:

Thanks @maintenanceman

Yes I agree with much of that without having the time right now to debate the details. However, it seems to me that it is too difficult to compress all these prophetic passages to 70ad. To be sure Revelation is John’s contribution to the Olivet Discourse, but he also contributes more detail and I think more future. That is why I fall into the partial preterist line of thinking. The passages that I find too difficult to find fulfillment in 70ad include …

Job 19:25
Acts 1
1 Thess 4:16-17
parts of Matt 24
Revelation 20:4-5

It should be noted that Sproul has also said he believes in multiple parousiasi, while still looking for a return of Christ in the flesh.

Also regarding the justification of those punished in Hades, the heart of my conclusion is that I believe all mankind was justified at the cross. I understand that faith does not cause justification, but receives our justification. I think I may have pointed you to the wrong article. Check this one if still interested. dgjc.org/dgjc/justified.

Thanx Jeff,

Yes Sproul does fall into the partial preterist view. All well and good. He still has time to come to the light side! :smiley: I just mentioned this for a reference to what others view mat 24 as.

As you already know the (or at least one of the) major chasm between full and partial preterist’s is the idea of a fleshly resurrection. Bodies (fleshly) being rejuvenated and made glorious. Where are the bodies?

Good luck and I’ll be sure to check out your link!

Thanks,

Chad

Thanks and on your last question I thought that was my question to you :slight_smile:. Where are the bodies?

My understanding is the resurrection of the body or at least final glorification remains still future for all mankind.

Jeff,

Glorification is complete.
It is finished, as the Christ said.

You are looking through a view of personal salvation as opposed to a covenant view of what God had done through Israel/Christ and thus the church for the reconciliation of His creation.

You are looking to the future, and I am simply looking to the cross as the ultimate reconciler.

2 Cor 11:3 But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent’s cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ.

Halleluiah

Thanks!

Chad