With all due respect Jeff this is shaky semantic equivocation at best. So let me rephrase…
*IF there is yet MORE punishment to be paid for sin postmortem… THEN what need of Christ’s Cross was there in the first place *
And then there’s this from Paul…
Plain and simple! Now again any attempt to deflect away from this by claiming this ONLY applies to those “in Christ” THEN I’d simply challenge the consistency of your Universalist by asking… do you believe humanity is “in Christ”? QED… “death” is the end of sin and thus by logical extension any associated punishment.
**WHY ** You cannot just presume that and then provide no rational reason nor argument for saying such.
This is the problem with “universalism”… you have an INCOMPLETE salvation, always waiting, waiting, waiting for salvation to be “realized” as though Jesus never really quite got it finished. NO!! It is finished!!
“It remains as part of his ministry to the unbelieving.” You are just making this stuff up. What texts of scripture say this
Yes I do. In fact I believe humanity has always been in Christ since day 1. The perfect holiness of God the Father can withstand no sin. And so all of creation itself since the fall is hidden in Christ for the Godhead to demonstrate their amazing grace. I’ve written more about that here dgjc.org/dgjc/in-doctrine. Of course that does not make unbelievers Christians. Christians are those who believe and trust that their sins are hidden in Christ. Non-Christians are in the most pitied condition, fully forgiven and protected by Christ, but not believing the good news.
I thought the rational was obvious. You say post-mortem punishment is unjust. Yet do you agree that God’s punishes both the believing and the unbelieving while they are alive? Has God punished anyone in the history of the world? Cain? The flood? Anaias and Saphyra? Herod? Why is that not unjust then also? What changed? Nothing changed. God’s love for all mankind is constant whether we are dead or alive, as well as across both the old and new covenant.
2 Peter 2 highlights that false teachers, even though they are bought (redeemed and loved by Christ) will be judged, just as some fallen angels are held for judgment in Tartarus. Blackest darkness is reserved for these wicked false teachers. All this is prophesied as future, after the cross. Though of course you may say is was at completed at 70AD. And there we would have a big difference. What would you say? 1 Peter 4:5 also makes it plain that God still judges the living and the dead.
You are incredulous that I believe there is post-mortem punishment? I guess we will find out soon enough.
Our legal justification is finished. The complete proof that God’s love extends to the depth of his enemies hatred is finished. However, the complete removal of my sin and your sin is not finished. You and I are both still waiting for that.
It almost sounds like you are scoffing like those in 2 Peter 3. Though you likely say that coming was all fulfilled at 70AD. I will certainly agree that 70AD was certainly the fulfillment of judgment and destruction of wicked men. However, the promise and description of the Millennial Kingdom have convinced me that the GWT judgment remains yet future for humanity. Thus there remains yet future judgment and destruction of wicked men until Christ has completed the display of his grace. In fact I even believe that he has promised to return physically on this earth as reigning King and sin will still remain within humanity at that point for further display of his amazing grace until the GWT.
Certainly Jeff we come from polar-ends of the eschatological rainbow, and that’s all good, but this may explain why you keep putting words in my mouth that I didn’t actually say and then proceed with all manner of argument against what I allegedly said as a means of NOT dealing with what I actually have said, such as…
I mention nothing about the just or unjust-ness of “post-mortem punishment” – I merely challenge the validity of claiming “postmortem punishment” according to Scriptural evidence… so far you haven’t made your case. Certainly IF I were God there would be a settling of the books in terms of punishment, much punishment (good thing I’m not God)… but that’s my limited human understanding colouring my expectations; I suspect all our expectations will be blown out of the water, so to speak.
So, according to your theology “All are already justified in Christ” – what Scriptural evidence does your position provide showing that once “justified” postmortem punishment STILL prevails? What does THAT say about the so-called ‘justifying power of Christ’ as per your position? (again denuding the Cross of its power)
You can leave me out of that and I’ll let you own that one totally for yourself. There is “no sin” (the offence thereof) separating me from God. The ONLY separation my own errant actions bring is that of between me and my fellows, whoever they might be. It is however in my best interests to learn to enact the freedom that “the reconciliation” has wrought. I can best do this by imbibing of the principled truths of Scripture as per Jas 1:21 which works healing deliverance toward myself and others as per Jas 5:16 etc.
Again, your theology has “the display of his grace” equating to a “future judgment and destruction of wicked men” lol… I’m not you can see it but this above is a MASSIVE contradiction in and of itself!
What you interpret as “mocking” is simply my nudging attempts to open your eyes to the rabid inconsistencies of your position.
Nope. I wasn’t making a statement of my own in any way. I was only interpreting the two cartoons that I posted, according to the contrary messages that the sign-holders were giving.
Do you then believe those drowned in the flood where eternally damned and outside of God’s grace?
Do you also believe Anias and Saphyra where eternally damned and outside of God’s grace?
Like the ancient’s of the flood Ananias Sapphira paid the temporal price for their really bad choice i.e., the loss of their lives, period. That does not IMO equate to being “damned” temporarily or endlessly beyond THIS LIFE… their untimely deaths WAS the “judgement” they suffered.
Again… according to your theology “All are already justified in Christ” – what Scriptural evidence does your position provide showing that ONCE justified in Christ postmortem punishment STILL prevails? – what texts, NOT arguments BUT texts?
In the context of ‘The Revelation’ – thus the last days period of the OC… those who “overcame” imbibed of the rewards in the parousia associated with faithfulness and or martyrdom.
The key point upon which my question is asked, that being relative to the justified does… “postmortem punishment STILL prevails?”
This cannot be avoided and needs answering
Luke 16 - a man is punished in Hades after he died and was buried, before the cross.
Revelation 20:4-6 - the wicked dead remain not resurrected in Hades, after the cross, yet future from 2016.
Revelation 20:13-14 - the wicked dead are extracted from Hades, after the cross, at the commencement of glorious eternity.
The Lazarus story is about Israel, about a people about to be judged. The use of ‘Father Abraham’ and the ending of ‘let them look to Moses and the Prophets for they will not believe one raised from the dead’ is obviously a parable for the ones Christ came for… notably the stubborn Israelites. (I can’t help but think Dickens might have had this scripture in mind when working on his famous work.)
Johns Revelation is just that, the revelation of what Christ did. Not what he was going to do. Through Israel all have been reconciled. The Redeemer has arrived. God has done what the prophets have for ever been prophesying about.
I thought that since this thread is a bit old, I would quote Mr. Beck’s original post.
Lk 16 is a parable and NOT a theological breakdown of postmortem existence pre-cross.
Rev 20:4-6 says NONE of that.
So the logic you’re running with has the bulk of humanity suffering torturous torments in hades until as you put it “the commencement of glorious eternity” – so the longer the Parousia is delayed, delayed,delayed the longer God gets to “minister” (cough) anguish and pain upon the justified no less, because according to you postmortem punishment still prevails. WHAT A MESS!
No. I understand there to be punishment in Hades, governed by Christ’s loving hand. I never said it was torturous torments for the entire time. Though of course the the Rich man described it as agony. Just because I agree with some of the non-preterist and partial-preterist camp, please do not assume I have bought their whole party line. In the case of the punishments in Hades I Peter 3:18 - 4:6 points to post-mortem salvation as well.
Here are some questions I would have for you…
You seem angry in the discussion, simply declaring that Luke 16 is a parable without any consideration to the arguments that is it not a parable. For example Revelation 20 explains that people are removed from Hades. Is that then also a parable?
How you explain Revelation 20:4-5?
How do you explain 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18?
Do you believe Jesus physically ascended in Acts 1? Physically descended in 70AD?
What is the beginning and end of the 1000 years in your model of understanding?
Just for the record, I also believe that Jesus ‘came’ in judgment in 70 AD, but I also believe his second coming physically is still future.
I’m not “angry” though a little peeved… you clearly and blatantly say “All are already justified in Christ.” I know what Paul CLEARLY says about the justified being glorified – I simply want you to give the scripture that says “the justified” experience post-mortem punishment in hades – which is what you allege. I’m not interested in cryptic interpretations, plain text would do.
Seems a little unfair to so easily reject my understanding and then not answer my question. Oh well I am over it already.
I do agree that Christ ‘came’ in judgment upon Jerusalem in 70ad to punish the unbelieving Jews who crucified the Messiah, as Christ prophesied in Scripture.
However, I do not believe that was his second coming in the flesh. I understand passages like Acts 1:11, Revelation 20:4, and 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 to be speaking about the return of Christ as reigning king in the flesh, at the beginning of the Millennial Kingdom on this earth.
Some of my understanding might sound like Scofield dispensationalism, however, that is not where I am coming from. I best fit into what Millard Erickson calls historical dispensationalism. This view recognizes the 70ad judgment, acknowledges a future Millennial reign, but skips some of the curious Scofieldisms. Erickson would propose that the rapture at the return of Christ does not take Christians up into Heaven, but we meet him in the air and then descend to reign with him during the 1,000 years.
Erickson’s book, “A Basic Guide to Eschatology” is a good read even if you find you do not agree with him. He is not a restorationist, but that does not detract from his good observations.
Ok, now how do you explain 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18?
Jeff it also “seems a little unfair” that you demand answers to questions and for the most part get them, but then refuse to answer a basic question based off what you have clearly stated; so let me repeat…
Apologies IF I’ve missed the scripture/s plainly stating this… point me to where you are on this.
Hi Jeff,
I’ll be your huckleberry… Oh I think Randy covered that in another thread.
No, honestly, I’ll put my 2 cents worth in as a bit how I see that scripture. I will admit there are many out there who have a much solider grasp of the topic than me
Jeff you said,
“I do agree that Christ ‘came’ in judgment upon Jerusalem in 70ad to punish the unbelieving Jews who crucified the Messiah, as Christ prophesied in Scripture.”
So the first question is how many times (in scripture) does it say Christ will return?
If we look at:
2 Thessalonians 2:1-2 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,
We see that whatever they are expecting is not an fleshly earth changing event. So Paul’s is not saying look out the door and see for yourself, for if they were expecting an apocalypse in the fleshly sense, he could very well have said just that.
Matthew 16:27-28 "For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works. 28 “Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.”
I take this as Jesus talking about his second coming and he obviously speaks of some who are standing right there will be alive when this ‘return’ happens.
So if we believe these Mathew verses, we will have to adjust our lenses (way we look at scripture) to figure out what 1 thes 4:13-18 is speaking of.
We see in:
1 Thessalonians 5:1-4 But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. 2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief.
So stuff is happening and things are getting close. But what ever is going on, they are having to ask questions… (did it happen, is it happening?)
Matthew 17:10-12 And His disciples asked Him, saying, “Why then do the scribes say that Elijah must come first?” 11 Jesus answered and said to them, "Indeed, Elijah is coming first and will restore all things. 12 “But I say to you that Elijah has come already, and they did not know him but did to him whatever they wished. Likewise the Son of Man is also about to suffer at their hands.” 13 Then the disciples understood that He spoke to them of John the Baptist.
Malachi 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet Before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD.
So now we come to our text. You have already said you agree that Christ ‘came’ in judgment upon Jerusalem in 70ad to punish the unbelieving Jews who crucified the Messiah, as Christ prophesied in Scripture."
I will also assume you are talking about Matthew chpt 24, in regards to that.
There is an interesting comparison I found that compares our Mat verses with our 1 thes verses:
1 Thessalonians 4:15-18 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first (resurrection). 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
A comparison between 1 Thessalonians 4-5 and Matthew 24 is fascinating.
Christ Himself Returns Matt. 24:30 I Thess. 4:16
From Heaven Matt. 24:30 I Thess. 4:16
With a Shout Matt. 24:30 (in power) I Thess. 4:16
Accompanied by Angels Matt. 24:31 I Thess. 4:16
With Trumpet of God Matt. 24:31 I Thess. 4:16
Believers Gathered Matt. 24:31 I Thess. 4:17
In Clouds Matt. 24:30 I Thess. 4:17
Time Unknown Matt. 24:36 I Thess. 5:1-2
Will Come as a Thief Matt. 24:43 I Thess. 5:2,4
Believers Unaware of Impending Judgment Matt. 24:37-39 I Thess. 5:3
Judgment Comes as Travail upon Expectant Mother Matt. 24:8 I Thess. 5:3
Believers to Watch Matt. 24:42 I Thess. 5:4
Warning Against Drunkenness Matt. 24:49 I Thess. 5:7
So I would say whatever Paul is saying, he is merely re telling what the lord said through the Olivet discourse.
The reform preacher R C Sproul even says:
Dr. R.C. Sproul and other scholars propose a third way of interpreting Matthew 24:1–35, which argues that “the substance of the Olivet Discourse was fulfilled in AD 70” (The Last Days According to Jesus, p. 158). Our studies to come will advocate this approach. The main advantage of this view is that it takes seriously the time-frame references found in the Olivet Discourse. It also focuses on the context of the discourse — our Lord’s prediction of the fall of the temple (Matt. 24:2) — providing a coherent answer to the question as to when these things will take place (v. 3), that is, when Jerusalem and its temple will be destroyed
I think, just as Paul all along taught the gentile churches, we are talking about an age ending and a new one unfolding, in the spiritual sense.
Yes I agree with much of that without having the time right now to debate the details. However, it seems to me that it is too difficult to compress all these prophetic passages to 70ad. To be sure Revelation is John’s contribution to the Olivet Discourse, but he also contributes more detail and I think more future. That is why I fall into the partial preterist line of thinking. The passages that I find too difficult to find fulfillment in 70ad include …
Job 19:25
Acts 1
1 Thess 4:16-17
parts of Matt 24
Revelation 20:4-5
It should be noted that Sproul has also said he believes in multiple parousiasi, while still looking for a return of Christ in the flesh.
Also regarding the justification of those punished in Hades, the heart of my conclusion is that I believe all mankind was justified at the cross. I understand that faith does not cause justification, but receives our justification. I think I may have pointed you to the wrong article. Check this one if still interested. dgjc.org/dgjc/justified.
*
** You cannot just presume that and then provide no rational reason nor argument for saying such.
NO!! It is finished!!
What texts of scripture say this 
