The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Universalism and the Salvation of Satan

Am I right in my recollection that Talbott sees it that lucifer will be reconcile while Satan is destroyed? I thought I read something of that notion in his book? Perhaps when he’s ready to come on he might give some insight.

Whoever or whatever Satan is he/it seems to me in the Bible to be fairly clearly shown to be an agent of God; very firmly under God’s control and has a role to play in the cosmic and earthly drama (for reasons best known to God - all 3 of them :wink: ). I can’t see any good reason for Satan (if that is a person as opposed to a concept of evil) not to be reconciled.

As for Lucifer/Satan I know many people don’t believe the former fell to become the latter.

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There’s that to be considered, too. The OT book of Job has perhaps the most nuanced presentation of Satan/Leviathan in the Bible.

If he/it is simply (i.e. knowingly, willingly, and obediently?) playing a God-assigned role, would there not seem little reason for him/it to be “tormented unto the age of ages”?

Jason Pratt said

Gregory of Nyssa (who surely counts as something in the history of the Church, being named a “doctor of the Church,” “The flower of Orthodoxy” and “father of fathers” by eccumenical council) certainly agreed with you Jason.

We certainly believe, both because of the prevailing opinion, and still more of Scripture teaching, that there exists another world of beings besides, divested of such bodies as ours are, who are opposed to that which is good and are capable of hurting the lives of men, having by an act of will lapsed from the nobler view, and by this revolt from goodness personified in themselves the contrary principle; and this world is what, some say, the Apostle adds to the number of the “things under the earth,” signifying in that passage that when evil shall have been some day annihilated in the long revolutions of the ages, nothing shall be left outside the world of goodness, but that even from those evil spirits shall rise in harmony the confession of Christ’s Lordship.

(On the Soul and the Resurrection)

He (Christ) accomplished all the results before mentioned, freeing both man from evil, and healing even the introducer of evil himself. For the chastisement, however painful, of moral disease is a healing of its weakness.

(The Great Catechism, ch. XXVI)

As to the whole question of freewill vs. Providence, I don’t see them as mutually exclussive concepts (and I suppose that makes me a Mollinist, though I was unfamiliar with the term until I read Gregory MacDonald’s book.)

Thanks for those quotes, Michael. I was going to post the one from St. Gregory of Nyssa’s Great Catechism, but you beat me to it! :mrgreen:

John in Revelation is looking at the new earth-the recreated earth that Lucifer has destroyed by us using his principles-the law of greed. If you look at the picture the Jews were given of the earth at creation the firmament was sandwiched between water. The fountains of the deep and a layer of water in the highest level of our atmosphere. At the time of the flood the fountains of the deep were released and now are our present day oceans. The layer of water in the upper most layer was destroyed by the jettisoned steam that was coming from the core of the earth.

On the sixth day of creation God looked on the earth and said everything was very good. If everything was very good there obviously have been dramatic changes since the time of the flood. If everything was very good at creation radio-active materials could not have been on the surface of the earth. They cause cancer and can be used by man to destroy the planet many times over. If however the radio-active materials and our oceans were in the core everything would indeed be very good.

The decay of the R.A. materials would heat the fountains of the deep producing steam which would heat and water the entire planet from below. We store spent R.A. materials in caves because the granite walls contain the radioactivity. So the granites in the mantle would not allow radioactivity to the surface. When oil wells are first opened, they gush because they are under tremendous pressure. After a while the pressure is reduced and drillers then force steam through the granite mantle to force the remaining oil out. So everything I stated would have been physically possible.

If God created the world to be inhabited as he states the oceans are huge wastes of space. Again if they are under the mantle in the core they serve a purpose that is indeed very good. We need water for plants but the steam forced through the granites would have been a far superior way of doing it. Now we either can get too much and have floods or to little and have droughts. The rain packs the soil and splashes micro-organisms onto the plants causing diseases. If the oceans were in the core and were heated by the R.A. material the entire earth would have had the same temperature and constant access to moisture as God said “very good”. The Bible does say mist came up from the earth and watered the whole surface.

The layer of water around the earth in the upper level of the atmosphere would have been solid ice or ice crystals. Either way it would have been super cold water at that elevation. Super cold water acts as a magnet. Since the earth is a magnet they would have repulsed each other. God created gravity which would have offset the repulsion and kept the layer in place. Having a layer of ice in the upper level of our atmosphere would have filtered out all x-rays which destroy cells, gamma rays and UV which cause cancer and cell mutations. So before the flood very good, after, not so much.

If the R.A. materials would have started to increase past the rate God had set them the fountains of the deep would have caused excess steam which would have finally fractured the earth releasing the fountains of the deep and causing it to rain for forty days as the steam cooled and came back to the earth. If you overheat an egg in a micro-wave it will jerk violently just prior to shattering. Our earth is at a 28 degree angle which causes hot and cold areas from the uneven heating of the surface. This causes wind patterns. The wind over Northern Africa blows continually from the east and acts like a blast furnace killing vegetation at the western edge of the Sahara. The desert is still expanding. And determining the rate of expansion its age can be determined, which corresponds to what the Bible says is the time of the flood. The meeting of cold and hot areas is what causes all our severe weather. Hurricanes, tornadoes and violent thunderstorms are all a consequence of the earth’s tilt. So before the flood very good and after not so much.

2 PETER 3 : 7 “By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.”

The fountains of the deep are no longer in the core so if the R.A. materials would again overheat it would not blow at 212 degrees as the first time. This time it would continue until the solid materials became vapor which would mean thousands of degrees.

2 PETER 3 :10 "But the day of the Lord will come like a thief! The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare.

If you investigate radio-active materials on the net you will see that they estimate that they cause about 80% of the heat generated in the core.

Here is the kicker. In May of 2012 Purdue reported that the decay rate of all materials has started to increase. Their findings have been verified by a number of other schools. I also heard two news reports on mind studies. In one case they concentrated on positive and negative thoughts while freezing water. The positive thoughts caused no change, but the negative thought caused the ice to be cloudy and a strange crystaline structure. The other study said they changed the decay rate of a material when they concentrated on negative thoughts.

At the flood God said man’s thoughts were evil continually. If you read the description that Paul gives of the endtime in 2 Timothy 3 : 1 it is a very good definition of what God said it was at the flood. God says (Zec 4:6 & 1 John 5:6) that he does nothing by might nor power but by the truth. So if he is demonstrating to the universe the defects in the law of greed compared to the law of love would he be grieved he created us, not mad but sad if they were suffering as mankind is today? If this is a demonstration to prove Lucifer’s accusations wrong no one has to die eternally. But to prove what happens if you follow the law of greed some might have to explode on this planet as part of the demonstration. If God raises everyone prior to the earth being destroyed as the Bible states, what happens to those who have believed what the churches teach about a God of wrath. Would they run in fear? Would they die the second death in a lake of fire?

Perhaps Satan and his angels (beast & false prophet) will be tormented day and night forever and ever. While wicked humans are thrown into the eternal Lake Of Fire they don’t stay there forever. They are purified. How do I know? Because the Bible says God is the Savior of all people - especially them that believe. He desires all to be saved and is not willing that any should perish and the God of the Bible always accomplishes His purposes.

What about the Book Of Life?

The Book of the living in the Old Testament is different from the Book of Life in the New. If you will notice in the Bible when God regenerates someone it will sometimes mention that He changes their name. Well, based on this we can see that the people in the Lake Of Fire receive a new name after they are purified. It is this name that was written in the Book Of Life from the foundation of the world.

Most of us define God as the ground and source of all being.

And C.S. Lewis (a mere man) said “…there is a difficulty about disagreeing with God. He is the source from which all your reasoning power comes: you could not be right and He wrong any more than a stream can rise higher than it’s own source. When you are arguing against Him you are arguing against the very power that makes you able to argue at all: it is like cutting off the branch you are sitting on.”
(Mere Christianity, pg. 48.)

If this is the true definition of God, and Satan and his angels know Him as the ground and source of all being, wouldn’t they know that nothing they do could possibly thwart His purposes, and that all their efforts must end up serving His plan?

Why then would they bother fighting God, tempting men, planting false doctrines in the Church, planing and sceeming, etc.?

And doesn’t James 2:19 imply that they do in fact know that there is a Supreme Being who is the ground and source of all being?

**Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. **

If they know that, and they have even average human intelligence, wouldn’t they know that they’re wasting their time?

“Better to reign in Hell than serve in Heaven” ?

Except that it isn’t better to reign in hell than serve in heaven in God’s estimation, and if they had even the human intelligence of C.S. Lewis, wouldn’t they have to know that He’s right and they’re wrong?

That (as C.S. Lewis said) “…there is a difficulty about disagreeing with God. He is the source from which all your reasoning power comes: you could not be right and He wrong any more than a stream can rise higher than it’s own source. When you are arguing against Him you are arguing against the very power that makes you able to argue at all: it is like cutting off the branch you are sitting on”?

If he/it is simply (i.e. knowingly, willingly, and obediently?) playing a God-assigned role, would there not seem little reason for him/it to be “tormented unto the age of ages”?

I think the greek word translated as “tormented” was also used to mean “refine” as in refining something into a precious metal. I think that most likely Satan was always Satan.
There are some verses that seem to say that “creation” will be reconciled to God.

So, in your view, Satan is a faithful servant just consciously doing a job that someone has to do, and that God gave him?

Did you ever see “Wholly Moses”?

Herschel meets the devil outside Sodom (he was played by the late John Ritter, I believe) where he’s come to collect souls and complains of the dirty job God’s given him.

He says that one day God just handed him the red suite he was wearing and said “try this on for size,” and I’m always reminded of that when I talk to those who believe God created the devil as is.

Does anyone else have any thoughts?

Let me be more clear - The point of reigning in Hell is not a matter of knowledge, it’s a matter of pride. I have known people that would rather experience some kind of pain that admit they are wrong.
The devil may NOT be smarter than us - if his understanding is warped, he probably is a fool. Angels may see some things we cannot yet see, but it works both ways, I think.

Granted.

But if “One God” means that there’s one Ground and Source of all being, and if James 2:19 is true (and the demons know that there’s such a God), how could he be fool enough to think he could succeed in opposing God’s ultimate purposes?

How could he expect to destroy Job if he knew that the All knowing Ground and Source of all being was on Job’s side?

How could he not anticipate that in the end his efforts could only serve to further God’s plan, if God is what we believe Him to be, and he knows God to be what we believe Him to be?

Michael, I see your point, and it’s a good one.
I wonder if, like humans, satan’s understanding is darkened, perhaps even more than ours is. (If they eye that is in us is dark, how great is that darkness) Something evil cannot rise above its ‘evilness’ and still retain the intellectual good. Perhaps he is a slave to his desires, his lusts, his perversions, but loves them anyway, much as people do.
The demons may tremble, but it might be just as much rage as fear, and it does push them to further rage, perhaps.

Could it be that satan is Insane? That would make sense.

A lot of ‘perhapses’ in there. :slight_smile: What do you think of the insanity theory?

You brought this passage to mind.

Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. (John 8:44.)

I think being a slave to irrational lusts would be a type of insanity, so it kinda ties in with your first comment.

Thank you.

Torment brings to mind the weeping & gnashing of teeth in the gospels, as in sorrow & self hatred for sins.

It seems the word “unto” in “unto ages of the ages” (Rev.20:10) can mean “into”, with a purpose, & not necessarily for the entire duration of:

biblehub.com/greek/1519.htm

Just a word about the meaning of “βασανιζω” (basanizō). The lexicon provided in the Online Bible program states as its first meaning:

Also the English word “basalt” is derived directly or indirectly from this word.

So in Revelation 20:10, by analogy, the devil and the false prophet will be tested in the Lake of Fire from time to time until they are purified, and the test indicates that this is the case.

So perhaps the best translation of Revelation 20:10 is:

And they will be tested day and night for ages and ages.

I know a popular recent rebuttal to that interpretation of the term, among annihilationists at least, is that the usage is archaic to the time of RevJohn – it used to mean that, but didn’t anymore by the time of the latter half of the first century.

I haven’t seen the details on this rebuttal argument yet; but certainly the OT hadn’t stopped being used at the time of writing RevJohn (whenever that was), and the OT typically uses refining language for remedial and disciplinary-training action. Put together with a functional analogy of what the ‘basin/sea of fire’ did in Temple worship (clean sacrifices to be acceptable and pleasing to God), and I think we’re still in business there.

It just occurred to me to wonder if “basin” is also derived from this word!

Can there be any question of Satan’s eventual salvation from Revelation 5:13?

This includes everyone in the universe, including the dead and demons:

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

John speaks of “every creature” & to emphasize this again he repeats “and all that are in them”:

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

This worship (v.13) uses the same worshipful words as the redeemed of vs 9-10 use in v.12:

12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

All this being in the context of salvation - “the Lamb that was slain” (v.12 & 13).