The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Should we form universalist congregations?

I’d have to say that I don’t think “Universalist Congregations” are a good way to go, although I do feel some affinity with those who advocate them here.

Like the previous poster, I hate the doctrine of eternal conscious torment, but I would resist breaking fellowship with those who believe it.

No, I would much rather see us work towards churches that allow a variety of opinions and practise a generous orthodoxy (to reuse that now familiar phrase) - an ecclesiology based on affirming the core truths of Christian belief (and practice!), what Stan Grenz called “Renewing the Centre”, while allowing room at the edges. Universal Reconciliation is a wonderful doctrine, but if I am making it the litmus test of fellowship then maybe I’ve lost sight of the centre.

I don’t intend to minimalise the importance of eschatology for the church (I’m a Moltmann fan, so I couldn’t possibly do that!) but merely to point out that all our theology is ‘hope’ - may I even say ‘tentative’ - and we shouldn’t be in the business of drawing lines and making more boxes to put people in, something I think a “new denomination” or universalist congregation would do.

My 2p worth. (2 cents if you want, but mine’s worth more!)

Jamie

P.S. I just hope my church community lives up to our words if/when they find out about me! Maybe it’s a question of “the courage of my convictions” as a previous poster suggested, but the reality is I have a family to support, new christians and young people to mentor, a great kingdom community to lead and I have to act in love and an awareness of how my “convictions” (which I’ve had time to arrive at) might affect others pastorally - Paul’s advice on the ‘weaker brother’ springs to mind. Universalism is wonderful news and a wonderful freedom, yes, but (a) I might be wrong, (b) they might get hurt and © love should always win. I don’t think it’s an issue of courage.

Yes, let’s not be guilty of that.

Since I worked within the mainstream ECT system (so to speak) for thirty years I can’t fault anyone for staying as there is definitely a time to just be effective where you’re planted. Frankly I was surprised how it all came down for me. I simultaneously stumbled upon several people in great anguish over why God would create billions of people foreknowing the outcome of ECT and some in great anguish about parents, siblings etc. who had passed on while apparently unconverted.

When my daughter (16 at the time) began to fall into depression (and finally confided in me the reasons why) I shared with her what I’d always known about the final outcome and God’s ‘big picture’ plan for the ages. She dropped her head wept and said “I knew it… I knew it wasn’t true (ECT) but I thought I HAD to believe it.” Over the past year her life has been totally transformed.

Leaving the ministry was like dying. I cried profusely in my pastors office and could not even communicate my intentions till the second meeting because I couldn’t control the initial flood of emotions. I had worked w/him almost everyday for 20 years straight. I had lead worship at least 2 times a week for 30 years non-stop (sometimes up to 10 times a week with school/conferences/crusades). Also, I am in poor health with no health insurance (they added health coverage this year :frowning: )
so now I’m unemployed and fighting hard to support my family doing whatever. Regrets? No - none. it’s something I had to do for conscience sake, a personal thing. Yes, I am hoping many follow suite, but that is God’s job to direct others.

Now: the fallout. Do not underestimate what happens to people who speak up about this. My leaders and church family were the best ever (and I’ve seen it all) but the backlash ranged from “I want to hear more” and “Wow, I don’t agree - but that’s OK” to “You are denying the faith” and “You are calling God a liar” and “You’re saying we don’t need Jesus”.

I have family members (close family members) dis-fellowship me. There is even conflict in my own household.

Some boycotted my staff going away party. The leadership got flack for not publicly denouncing me. I received phone calls saying “What are you talking about??? Why are we preaching? Why are we sending missionaries?” and the whole thing started really blowing up - so to keep the peace I stopped attending altogether. Some called with interest and a couple even called and confessed their agreement.

So, I’m not really so brave - I’m scared, I’m hauling scrap metal, I’m producing music in my studio and I’m literally hanging out with drunks, druggies and broken people in my small town. I see Christ in them. Many of them think God is unapproachable because no one has ever explained what He’s really like. I walked away from a secure job (everyone got raises this year too - sheeesh!!!) but I’m satisfied and my conscience is clean. I think my effectiveness with people is up 1000% because I’m finally being true to what I know about God. There are daily conversations and prayer. I do get still get ridiculed for my faith by some (some things never change!) but am more ‘in the ministry’ than ever.

Sorry for the long post - but I figured it would be helpful and interesting for some. :slight_smile:

Jamie,
I understand your point and I’d like to be able to say boy that would be neat. But perhaps you might under estimate the fact that it was the religous right who was behind the movement to hang the most beautiful person upon the cross. It’s nice to say, lets get out there and convert the sanhedrin (I say this as a metaphor of narrow minded thinkers) but the truth is, at least for me, if I said anything of the sort ITS EXCOMMUNICATION.

Try going to a calvary chapel and saying Pre-Trib is bunk. If you think they have a hard time with convenant theology then wait till they get a load of Talbott and Macdonald. They already are all over Mclaren and his generous orthodoxy as if it’s from the pit of hell.

I’m not trying to say “forget them” but I am saying the artist in each or us SCREAMS to be heard and wants to ask questions about God’s masterpiece all around us (creation). But if people are subjected to “THINK LIKE US OR DIE!” then the artist in us will not survive and will rebel.

So I’m saying I think saying stay the course and hang in there is like telling an alcoholic, DONT DO IT. In time they will break and if they have no where to go to express themselves and BE HEARD, then they will slowly lose the passion which drives them.

So I still see a great need for a non emergant Evangelical Universalist church.

I don’t say this with 100% sureity but with my instinct at this point. My church does bear with me and I love my church so I hope to never leave it. However if there was an EU church in my town, I’m afraid I’d have to support it that I might learn to teach.

Sincerely,

Aug

Guys, thanks for the honesty. Firstborn888, I’m praying for you. It hurts me that people have been so damaged in the name of ‘orthodoxy’ (the more so when the issue at stake has never been given creedal status). I get the feeling things in the UK are generally not quite so black-and-white so perhaps that’s why I resist the idea of a new denomination more easily than others. Eschatology doesn’t seem to have the same divisive influence over here, at least from what I’ve heard about the US.

Certainly I am hopeful for my church, which is on the whole pretty generous, and I’m quite confident that, when the time comes to talk about it, the leadership and some key thinkers in the church will hear me out. Should I ever preach about it (i’ve let a few clues slip from time to time, and seen my wife give me knowing looks!) I’m sure there will be many in the congregation who will not understand. I get concerned emails about my non-belief in heaven (i.e. I preach against the ‘heaven when we die’ version of Christianity) and some have even said I don’t believe in the Trinity (no idea how they got that!) so a lot of people won’t understand how I got here.

I’m just really saddened by the effects holding to such a beautiful truth can have on people’s lives. Suffering for defending the faith is one thing, and to be expected, but suffering at the hands of family and fellow believers for defending one version of a murky part of the faith? Not so sure that should happen in the Kingdom.

Anyway - God’s richest blessings on you Firstborn888, and on any who have similar stories. You are all welcome here any time you’re passing by!

Jamie

First,
Wow, my prayers are with you bro. I had in my mind from out last year or so that everything was perfect for you never thinking about what life is really like for you.

I’d love to hear your music. I used to write but have not touched it for years. I’ve got a small music studio Cubase, Gigastudio, Atmosphere and stylus RMX bla bla bla : )

I mainly use it for wedding videos now.

if you haven’t been to my site check out the vids and give me your thoughts
www.gigdv.com

Anyhow bro, I’m sorry to hear it’s been so hard.

with love,

Auggy (Gene)

Very Nice site AUG! Mine is here:
spearssoundstudio.com/Welcome.html

Byron (firstborn888),

I’m glad to read more about you while I grieve with you. My prayers and heart go out to you.

I had to resign my US Assemblies of God (A/G) ministry credentials for me to teach my newly modified eschatology per A/G bylaws, but unlike you, I wasn’t a paid minister. I cannot fully comprehend what you’re going through. All I know is that I felt glad that I didn’t have a paid pastorate when I needed to resign. I see that your story epitomizes the need for The Evangelical Universalist forum board.

I offer you my spirit and mind in any way possible in the Lord. Since I’m a charismatic universalist (a subset of evangelical universalists), I might have something to offer you.: )

I want to share some of my vision. The Lord led me to seek out ministerial fellowships who would tolerate my universalist eschatology. And I found some. Praise the Lord! (My wife and I also consider other church factors while we consider our family’s church home in Central NY.)

I have the liberty to share one possibility for me. My friend John Elmer is a Vineyard USA regional leader and pastor. Here is an email quote from John:

“As far as your eschatology theology, it is not a litmus test for partnership here. We have a variety here because we don’t make it a core of our doctrine. Much higher on the scale is character and spiritual passion. I think if anyone got too militant (disruptive) and dogmatic on eschatology theology we would have a talk. I will be praying that your family finds a good spiritual home where they can grow in all that Jesus has for them.”

And John gave me the okay to post his quote in The Evangelical Universalist forum board.: )

I have a vision that many charismatic churches will take this attitude toward evangelical universalism (EU). And sound biblical studies combined with gentle prophetic voices will help to establish EU as the prevailing eschatology in the charismatic movement.

Thanks for your responses all. Sometimes while in worship services the awesome presence of God’s goodness would envelope us I would ask the “Lord, why can’t they see what I see” and I always sensed the response “They will” but I always interpreted it to mean when “we see Him as He is” way off in the future. Maybe I won’t have to wait that long after all. :slight_smile:
Blessings,

  • Byron

Sometimes I’ll be in a service listening to hymns or professions of hope, and part of me is happy to hear them, but part of me is sad because I can’t help thinking: “you don’t really believe that… you don’t know what it is you’re saying.” :frowning:

Maybe we should have a thread devoted to reporting universalistic hope still embedded in hymns.

Guys

I just wanted to say ‘Thanks’ to you all for an honest and wondeful conversation! Just what the forum is for

Jason, please post all that you can think of about universalistic hope still embedded in hymns in “General Theology” or “Church”.: )

Gregory,
Thank you for helping us and motivating us. Indeed if there was a denomination that began, it would certainly have been benefited by you sharing your vision. Your helping others is important.

I’m very much like Mr. Pratt who sings a song and finds myself a bit taken back by the words. Sometimes I sing it louder becuase the hymn is so telling like…

Proned to wander oh Lord I feel it,
Proned to leave the God I love,
Here’s my heart Lord, take and seal it,
seal it for thy courts above.

though it’s not really a U. statement, it still moves me and I find myself at tears with such truth.

But then I get some other song and just think ohhhh BLA! :slight_smile:

What ever the case I have a deep yearning for this viewpoint to break out of it’s box.
I long for the day when people can truly be inclusive in their view of the world and exclusive in the source of such love (Faith alone in Christ).
Aug

Gregory, a belated thank you for so coherently arguing that the Bible’s story and theology point us toward a universal hope! I too want us to stay in evangelical churches rather than form separate bodies who would put the premium on universalism and encourage other vital truths of our faith to be diminished. And I would never want to break fellowship with other believers.

But on a practical level do you perceive that such churches will allow us to participate? Or are you assuming that this generally can only happen if we remain silent? My perception is that the assumption that God will discard most of his beloved creation to an unredemptive and endless retribution (ECT) poses great obstacles concerning God’s character especially among many of the lost. You indeed are eloquent about this. So do you see this as not significant enough to take opportunity in our congregations to graciously share the possibility of a wider hope. Most believers cannot share such a hope pseudononymously. What have you observed in your own church experience about addressing this dilemma?
Grace be with you, Bob Wilson

I know “Gregory” has to work with a pseudonym in order to protect his teaching job; and I myself can say with some certainty that there is no way the church I currently attend would allow me to be a small-group teacher, much less one of the pastors (even though they desperately need both and even though I certainly qualify as capable enough). And in a way I wouldn’t want to be, because that would introduce too much schism into the leadership corps. We have Arminians and Calvinists both, and that can sometimes lead to serious problems; but at least they all agree that God will not be saving some (many/most) people from sin!

I can be an apologist without necessarily talking about my universalism at any given time; as I do over at the Cadre (which also features a mix of Calv and Arm soteriologists. Though notably I reserve the right to affirm and profess and preach universalism in the comments! :smiley: ) And I could teach various Biblical and theological things without necessarily being a universalist (maybe–though the scriptures are so saturated in it, that to some degree I would have to truncate my teaching to avoid it! :smiley: ) But I don’t believe I can be an evangelist without referencing it; how am I supposed to preach the gospel and train and encourage other people to do the same–a gospel of repentence unto the sending away of sin–without mentioning the scope of the hope of the gospel!? It would be like trying to teach Christology without mentioning the honor, attributes, nature, deeds and seat of Christ. Anything less, just isn’t enough. :slight_smile:

(Not incidentally, when I occasionally contribute a sermon to the main Cadre posts, you can just about bet that sooner or later I’ll refer to the ultimate hope of the gospel. You can also bet with a high degree of certainty, that whatever form the cosmology may look like at any given time in my series of novels, sooner or later, to this or that degree, I’ll be talking about what I am always thinking of in the background: the hope of the gospel, that God will go the farthest distance to seek and save the lost and never give up on them, even when, in various ways, they’ve given up on Him.)

Gregory, can you fill us in on this? I think we’d all like to hear a bit about your experience.

Aug

I’m with Gregory on this one. I see no need for creating ‘universalist congregations’. Things are fragmented enough - would a universalist church be superior to the Orthodox? I don’t think so. The fact is - it has been tried and was marginalized by the rest of church. As a Lutheran, I can find universalistic truths in Luther and the fathers, the Orthodox have the fathers, the Catholics have the fathers. All our roots are the same.

So if not UR congregations, should ECT congregations allow UR members? IOW should I be able to speak freely about my UR views?

That’s an excellent question. And one with some very tough answers, I think. There are lots of angles to consider–and they don’t all come out in our favor.

(I’m working on another project this weekend, that I hope to finish, but I think this question is worth at least an initial essay. Until then, would anyone care to volunteer some non-obvious angles to the question…?)

Well, down here in the bible belt (Texas) UR doesn’t go over too good. For many evangelicals avoiding eternal hell is the name of the game. If you take that out of the equation then it’s ‘game over’. :wink:

Thanks folks, Jason I’ll be waiting on your reply. My wife won’t even discuss it with me. She asked me to keep my views to myself. It embarasses here when I ask questions to other folks. I’m not 100% sold on UR although I 100% want it to be true. I spent 40+ years believing in ECT or at least thinking I had to. I had a very vivid dream that started my search. Basically I woke from the dream with the thoughts I’d never do that to anyone. I thought it was the Lord but how can I be sure. Anyway that was about four years ago and I’ve gone between doubt and elation. It gets tiring. Maybe you folks could share how you transfered from traditional beliefs to UR. I haven’t read GM’s book yet. I can’t really spend what it costs without explaining it to my wife. Its just not worth the friction that it causes.

Again Thanks for Posting

Still in One Peace

Mike from Georgia