I havenât caught up further downthread yet, but Iâm curious how Satan, malevolently trying to destroy a man, who usually operates by tempting a person to magnify the personâs self-serving nature, would go about intentionally trying to destroy the self-serving nature of the man as a means of intending to destroy the man utterly. The only way I can see that working would be for Satan to enslave the man into merely reacting to stimulus â which is something the man would have to be saved from eventually! Physical death wouldnât be the only way to force a person into merely reacting to stimulus, but itâs clearly a destructive way, even a most destructive way, and unlike the manâs sexual extravagances it isnât something the man would be positively tempted to lose himself in as a desirable state of existence, so could easily serve the unintended purpose (from Satanâs perspective) of leading the man to repent of his sins having now tasted consequences he would care about.
But how would Satan go about destroying the manâs self-serving nature by means of only attacking his fleshy sin-nature with the goal of thus completely destroying the man, not realizing or caring that by only attacking the manâs disposition toward sin Satan would only be attacking the manâs disposition toward sin and so would be leading him to righteousness consequently??
Yes, but if all that Satan was attacking was the manâs fleshy sin-nature of self-servingness, the way the Holy Spirit presumably does (too??), the SSG would have been being led by Satan only and immediately toward righteousness, curing his sin-nature from its corruption: consequently, there would be no reason for Paul to contrast the olethron of the manâs sarx to an expectation of the manâs pneuma being saved in the Day of the Lord to come. Satan would be acting like the Holy Spirit toward saving the manâs pneuma with results tending only toward immediate moral improvement (instead of acting at cross purposes to the Holy Spirit): Paul would have no reason to look forward to the Day of YHWH for the saving of the manâs spirit, Satan (of all things/people) would be saving the man from evil now. Paul could reasonably expect such an operation to have immediately positive and continually improving results. It wouldnât even be punishment per se! â nor would it result, in the short term, in a situation like in 2 Cor (assuming for purposes of argument this refers to the SSG) where Paul, somewhat reluctantly, has to take the lead in convincing the Corinthians to reconcile with the SSG in pity for the horrible suffering heâs going through. If only his self-serving fleshly sin-nature was being destroyed, he wouldnât likely be horribly suffering, and more importantly he wouldnât still be being shunned and rejected by the Corinthian church and even (up to this point) by Paul! Rather they ought to be on increasingly improving personal relationships, even if for whatever reason the SSG hasnât been officially returned to Christian communion yet.
Certainly! â but Satan and the other evildoers arenât merely attacking the selfishness and evil in their victims! Otherwise (and quite in parallel with the pagan armies being sent to punish rebel Israel), God wouldnât be treating Satan and other scourging evildoers as evildoers who themselves deserve punishment for how theyâre treating those whom God is punishing by handing them over to Satan and other evildoers.
(Which by the way loops back over to the judgment of the baby-goats in how they treat the other people who are also the least of Christâs flock! )
Since I wasnât arguing that Paul was handing the SSG over to Satan for the destruction of his spirit, but rather to accomplish an ultimate good in regard to the person (and his spirit), you can be agreeing with me on that, too, you know.
The point of contention between Paidion and I was over what Paul expects Satan to do in olethroning the SSGâs sarx. I donât see how it can make any kind of sense yet to expect Satan to be attacking only the sinful propensity â even if that is a side-effect of Satanâs attack, intended by Paul for the ultimate good of the SSG. Whereas itâs well within Satanâs mode of operation (whether Satan is taken figuratively or literally) to attack the personâs spirit by attacking the literal flesh into several modes of fatal dissolution. Paul doesnât call Satan âthe deathâ for nothing, especially in contrast to bodily resurrection in Christ (even of the evil as well as of the good).
Pilgrim brings up a good comparison: the Holy Spirit definitely kills at least the bodies of Ananias and Sapphira â or anyway no other agent is invoked as an explanation for their punitive deaths. It seems weirdly backward for Paul to hand the Stepmom-Sleeping Guy over to something not the Holy Spirit in order for only the manâs sinful propensity to be attacked by âSatanâ, which would be more merciful (since only the sinful propensity would be targeted by âSatanâ) than handing him over to the Holy Spirit! On the other hand, Anan and Sapph are killed quickly and even peacefully without even destruction of their flesh per se.
Like Davo says, though, if Paul hands the SSG over to âthe Adversaryâ (whatever thatâs supposed to be, though I canât think it refers to a Person or direct power of God) expecting the manâs spirit to be saved in the Day of YHWH to come, how much moreso should we expect salvation by YHWH of Anan and Sapph apparently slain by YHWH!
Which has topical connection with my main argument in favor of the 2 Thess 1:9 punishment being hopeful, not hopeless, of course. If Paul can hand the SSG over to Satan for olethron punishment (whatever specifically that involved for the SSG) and hope for the salvation of the man in the day of YHWH to come, how much more should we expect the olethron of evildoers by God instead of Satan in the same Day of YHWH to have the salvation of the spirits as a goal!
For purposes of that exegetical comparison, whether or not the various people are being bodily killed by the olethron-ing is irrelevant.
To which I will remind again that in at least two of the three scriptural prophecies Paul is referencing in his Thessalonian usages of olethron, evildoers are being slain either directly by God or by other evildoers sent on Godâs authority (the latter of whom are also indiscriminately killing the innocent, too.) And while the Isaiah 2-5 bloc may only talk indirectly about rebels being slain by God, the authoritative death of rebels (directly by God and indirectly by evildoers on Godâs authority) is hardly foreign to Isaiah elsewhere.
I grant this isnât deductive evidence for what Paul expects to happen to the SSG in 1 Cor 5, and to rebels who donât obey the gospel of Jesus Christ in 2 Thess 1:9, but whatever inductive expectation weight it lends is in the direction of similar expectation of fatalities. (Even if the SSG repents and reconciles later before his fatality completes.)
I can see your point that the usual mode of operation of actual Satan is not to save the personâs spirit. Turning the man over to Satan here, then, in 1 Corinthians 5:5, could be a metaphor for allowing the man to be immersed in and consumed by self-generated depravity, some of which was on display while the man was a member of the Corinthian church.
Paul uses the same type of language in 1 Timothy 1:20.
âAmong these are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan, so that they will be taught not to blaspheme.â
In the 1 Corinthians 5:5 passage,
âI have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus,â
Paul arranged this consuming immersion in depravity by instructing the church to sever all ties with this man and thus to let him live without that strong, potentially positive, but to that time, ineffective force in his life. (Note that this instructionâapparentlyâoccurs in the last part of 1 Corinthians 5:13, â. . . REMOVE THE WICKED MAN FROM AMONG YOURSELVES." This instruction to the church to remove the man would make little sense if the man were to be killed as part of Paulâs turning him over to Satan.) After the man was removed from the church, he lived totally with his depravityâwith no counter from the churchâuntil he realized the truth of his situation. That was the start of his repentance and led him to the sorrowful state that Paul refers to later (if he indeed does). The manâs welcome back to the church (if this man is indeed the one referred to later) furthered his continued repentance until he was free from this depravity, a depravity that was eventually recognized by the man only after he was immersed totally in it, i.e., only after he was turned over to Satan.
Obviously the two ideas are not mutually exclusive, since I myself agreed there was an excommunication. I even talked about how excomâing the guy is itself evidence, in several ways, that Paul meant for the congregation not to consider his case hopeless.
Consequently, going on to discuss the excommunication I already acknowledged does not count against Paul expecting the SSG (and possibly Hym and Alex) to die from being handed over to Satan.
But say it is a metaphor (which I seem to recall also allowing): being immersed in depravity is not something which in itself has any inherent tendency to destroy a personâs sinful propensities, no more than Satan attack only the sinful propensity. The prodigal son doesnât repent of his life of whoring away his fatherâs money until he has been reduced by painful starvation to eating the leftovers of swine, and âjoiningâ himself to the owner of the pigs. (A euphamism often overlooked, but part of the shock value of the situation to a rigorous Jew no less than literally living with swine: there being no way surely the father would accept him back now.)
Until the evil passes a threshold of inconvenience in its results, the SSG would think being immersed in depravity was amenable! The phrase is much more likely to be a polite way of talking about being cursed with a painful and likely fatal result of his sins. Then being cut off from the church would be meaningful to the SSG; so would his horrific pain be explained if 2 Corâs pity and reconciliation refers to him. So would the term, olethron, synch better with Paulâs OT citations of prophetic expectations of what will happen to people olethronâd by God (whether directly by divine power or indirectly by pagan armies).
I see so much in your reply that suggests we agree even more than you acknowledge!
I agree that âbeing immersed in depravity is not something which in itself has any inherent tendency to destroy a personâs sinful propensities.â I also agree that âUntil the evil passes a threshold of inconvenience in its results, the SSG would think being immersed in depravity was amenable.â The prodigal sonâs depravity passed that threshold of inconvenience through circumstances unique to his case. Perhaps Paul saw that immersion in depravity would indeed cause the SSG to pass that threshold of inconvenience through circumstances unique to his case, too, even if it does not inherently or necessarily do that in all other cases. I mean if we are ready to say that Paul had the power to place an effective curse on someone, is it not as likely, or even more likely, that Paul had the power of perception sufficient to judge that an immersion in depravity would cause the SSG to pass the threshold of inconvenience?
But, despite that, I like your suggestion that there was a curse involved. I do have a question about a conclusion you drew, though. You said, âThe phrase is much more likely to be a polite way of talking about being cursed with a painful and likely fatal result of his sins,â followed by âThen being cut off from the church would be meaningful to the SSG.â How exactly does being cursed with a painful and likely fatal result of his sins make being cut off from the church more meaningful to the SSG any more than would immersion in depravity, which itself could cause pain and death, despite superficial and temporary pleasure?
I think we are going to have to wait for a definitive answer from Jason on this one because he was the first to use the abbreviation in this thread. I used it because he used it to describe the sexually deviant man who is the reason for Paulâs âdeliver to Satanâ message in 1 Corinthians 5:5.
Indeed, âthe Step-mom Sleeping Guyâ. Iâd use an actual name for him if Paul gave one, but since he doesnât and thatâs the final straw for Paul, I go with that for a humorous convenience.
Iâll have to get back to the rest of the thread later this afternoon, if possible. I think weâre pretty much in agreement about the underlying concepts; whether Paul expected the SSG to die or not is, to me, fairly minor.
Death by veneral disease (named after Venus) would be a result of immersion in depravity, so Iâm not distinguishing the two categories.
But anyway, the difference is that the church, unlike society at large, had an active reputation for merciful acceptance and treatment of people whose ills would be feared and rejected by society. Back before he became a Christian, sociologist Rodney Stark, studying why and how Christianity survived and thrived under a few centuries of rejection and persecution, inferred one reason being that they not only took better care of each other medically (leading to a couple of sharp population spikes after Empire wide calamities, since Christians didnât die off as much from those), but also took better care of non-Christians, helping to socially offset tendencies to persecute them.
Consequently, any socially revolting disease suffered by the SSG (not necessarily veneral, but that would be thematically appropriate) would give him strongly positive reasons to appreciate the fellowship he had lost.
It might be also topically relevant that, in a general resurrection of the good into transformed unperishing bodies, and of those who are still doing evil things into bodies still perishing (though now kept alive despite the perishing nature of their bodies), all impenitent rebels in the Day of the Lord to come would be in much the same position as the SSG to the church. By the same token, just as it will be important to the salvation of the impentient that the mature flock joins the Good Shepherd in ministering to the least of His flock, it would be important for the Corinthian church, and for St. Paul himself, to do their duty and kick into gear for ministering to the SSG once his condition had advanced (even if, this being before the general resurrection, he still eventually dies from it. But if not, great!) The perfected Church wonât (presumably) have to be chivvied out by the Holy Spirit to minister to the impenitents suffering from fondling their sins, but the Corinthian church and even the often-prickly St. Paul might lag more than they should, and so Paul might have to get them (including himself) up and going to help the SSG â if 2 Cor refers back to that situation.
Isaiah 4, however (getting back to the main topic a bit more ), shows the same concept the other way around: those who donât survive (in some fashion) seek reconciliation, in their misery, with the the righteous who did survive the coming of YHWH in the Day of the Lord, and so are cleaned of their filth by YHWH with the spirit of crisis (exactly the same term in Greek used by Paul for the judgment at 2 Thess 1) and the spirit of burning.
Yes, it seems that both a curse and an immersion in depravity can make being cut off from the church more meaningful. Thanks for the thorough explanation.
I just donât understand why so much is made of the SSG being cut off from the church. He was cut off out of love so that he might repent. Satan didnât destroy the SSG by giving him an early death. The SSG repented, was forgiven, and restored to the church. End of story.
So much is made out of it due to (1) the SSG not being clearly the guy whom Paul is recommending be restored in 2 Cor (nor does his story clearly have a happy ending even if 2 Cor is included â we donât know what happened with the SSG afterward, whether he accepted the offer or even whether he lived or died after accepting the offer), and;
(2) because Paul strongly contrasts two expectations: the SSGâs sarx being olethronâd by Satan, using a term Paul elsewhere connects directly to people being physically killed; and the SSGâs spirit being saved in the Day of the Lord to come.
The two stories arenât mutually exclusive, but do require Paul to be wrong (though in a good way) about when he expects the salvation to happen and wrong (in a good way) about what he expects to happen before the salvation.
But the key point is that Paul can expect someone to be olethronâd (even by Satan, though with the authoritative permission of God â through an apostle in this case), and yet still be saved in the same Day of the Lord Paul is talking about other evildoers being olethronâd in 2 Thess 1:8-9, even with eonian olethroning.
Could you not compare SSG being handed over to Satan to Job being handed over to Satan in Job 2:6? Itâs different circumstances of course; SSG man is obviously not righteous and is being handed over to Satan as some sort of remedial punishment, whereas Job is âblameless and uprightâ and seems to be being handed over to Satan more for Satanâs benefit than his own. At the same time, there is some sort of sanctification within Job, shown most clearly in the first six verses of chapter 42.
Could the phrase âhand over to Satanâ be a figure of speech? Such as we might say âleaving someone to their own devicesâ? I just wonder if we are being a bit too literal over this question?