The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Responding to Hope Beyond Hell

I might venture a thought from a fulfilled eschatological perspective where this isn’t a problem. What “remains” or the “At present, we do not yet see everything in subjection to him” is understood in what is called the “already but not yet” BUT is seen as what was occurring in the transition of “the ages” from Old to New covenants, i.e., THEIR age.

There was an overlapping period of approximately 40yrs (a biblical generation) AD30-70. A time of trial and testing where faithfulness was exhorted and challenged and fidelity would bear its reward in terms of life into the coming new age… this is of the same biblical pattern of Israel coming out of Egypt to Land of Promise (bondage into liberty). Faithfulness for NT saints would see them inherit the promises (Heb 6:12), better promises.

Now the “at present” represented THEIR “time of the end” (Dan 12:4, 7) AD30 forward when “knowledge shall increase” i.e., knowledge of salvation/deliverance aka ‘the gospel’ unto AD70 where and “when the power of the holy people has been completely shattered, all these things shall be finished.” Thus the AD70 parousia of Christ was the point at which “God may become all in all.1Cor 15:28. Thus from that time forward all is in subjection to Him for He is God over all.

Good point. So are we seeing a “now/not yet” kind of tension here? In what sense could someone be said to be fully subjected to Christ and yet continue to sin? Be put in subjection, sure - but that’s not necessarily the same thing as being in subjection, at the present instant. God can be “in Christ reconciling the world to Himself” without the entire world being instantly reconciled, no? So couldn’t the same sort of principle apply here? If these passages referred only to being under divine rule and not to universal obedience, then what change would be taking place - and how would it bring about God’s being “all in all”, unless all were in the same state of being?

I’m not sure how coherently I’m presenting this - I’m writing in a bit of a rush, and haven’t really worked through all this before - but those are my thoughts on the matter.

IMO, There is no sense, in terms of God dealing with humanity, that everyone is under His rule- else there would be no need for subjection or reconciliation. That God is ultimately in control of everything is a given- but that does not take into account His purpose, which according to Eph 1:9-11, is to gather everything into one in Christ; and 1 Cor 15:23-28 which speaks of all things (including every adversary) being subjected to Christ so that God may become “all in all”(everything in everyone"). These and a few other verses, like John 12:32 and Col 1:15-20 indicate to me that the subjection spoken of is not just suppression and forced obedience, because if that were so it would only speak of God being “over all”- which He currently already is. The subjection spoken of in these verses is therefore, imo, subjection to the love of God so that He becomes “all in all”. That is “the nature” of the oneness all are being gathered into.

If God has become all in someone, they are in His love and His love is in them, because God is love- so if He is “all” in someone, they are subjected to love- which is true freedom. Love is the “glorious liberty of the children of God” spoken of in Romans 8, into which the whole creation will be “set free from futility” into said “glorious liberty”.

For me, this subjection is to be brought into willing communion with the King of love.

Hi, STP. Please be sure to let everyone know, what you and your wife think of “Hell and Mr. Fudge.” We don’t want to have Mr. Fudge dangling - do we? :laughing:

And Bill Murray played himself in Zombieland :sunglasses:

http://ia.media-imdb.com/images/M/MV5BMTQxMzc0MDQyM15BMl5BanBnXkFtZTcwMDQ2Njc1OA@@.V1_SX214_AL.jpg

Now I’m off to see my doctor (the astute in the audience here. will recognize the loudspeaker announcement “Dr. Howard, Dc. Fine, Dr. Howard” in the background, and identify where it is originally from) :laughing:

I definitely think so.

I think these passages are all about authority. The change is that in the future, all will recognize His authority, even though some continue to rebel against it, as they demons do now. But there will be no doubt who the King is.

I think it’s talking more about His presence as King in all places. I don’t think it can mean that God will in be every person, because the next verse talks about being baptized for the dead (not that he was endorsing the practice, but that he recognized the rationale for it). The rationale is that everyone, including the dead, will be subjected to God, and therefore those who haven’t trusted in Him need to repent and be baptized. Paul didn’t say (at least not in these verses) whether that was possible post-mortem, but I think at the least the argument went something like this:

]Everyone (even the dead) will recognize that God is King./:m]
]Some of the dead do not trust in God as King./:m]
]Some (of the living) say “Since they haven’t trusted in God as King, and yet they will still be subjected to Him one way or another, let’s be baptized on their behalf, that they might not be condemned.” Apparently, they at least recognized that it was too late for the dead themselves to trust in Christ if they have not already./:m]
]And yet, whether this baptism on behalf of the dead works or not, Paul has said that God will be all in all./:m]

It seems like this would have been the perfect time to say, “Hey, don’t be baptized on their behalf! They’ll come around on their own! God will be in them!” But that’s not what he says (although, to be fair, he doesn’t directly speak against that either, rather he leaves it kind of open). Still, it seems “all in all” continues to refer to God’s authority over all rather than being in each person.

Or maybe that is what he says…

“Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.” (1 Corinthians 15:51-52)

The parallelism Paul is using would seem to make that unlikely. God subjected all things to Christ, therefore all things will be (in future) subjected to Christ specifically - not yet to God the Father - and once all things are subjected to Christ (in whatever sense the term is being used) then Christ will be subjected to God the Father in that same sense so that God will be all in all (whatever that may mean). Christ obviously recognizes the authority of God already, so the word subjected in this passage can’t be referring to mere recognition of authority - otherwise Christ would already be subjected to the Father.

Baptism for the dead doesn’t seem intrinsically tied to Paul’s subjection/all-in-all claims. The formatting of 1 Corinthians, to my mind, runs something like this: Paul explains how essential the resurrection is to the Christian faith; Paul reassures the congregation that there is a resurrection, and goes into some detail on what that means; Paul illustrates various problems the faith would have if there weren’t a resurrection (“otherwise”, or in other words “if what I’m telling you isn’t true, then why…”); Paul answers anticipated questions about resurrection bodies. If the all-in-all verse and the baptism-for-the-dead verse aren’t even part of the same thought, the same section of the letter, then what basis is there for thinking that the baptism for the dead verse is intended to help us interpret the all-in-all verse? And if it’s not, is there any reason to think that baptism for the dead has anything to do with subjection to God, as the word subjection is used in 1 Cor?

As you said, he doesn’t necessarily endorse the practice - he’s just using it as an example. He’s recognizing the rationale for the practice (whatever that rationale is) and pointing out how pointless the practice is if the dead are not raised. Telling people to stop doing the thing he’s just used to help make a case for the resurrection wouldn’t exactly help his case for the resurrection! (If he considered the dead people in question to be beyond help, he could have told them to stop for that reason - but he didn’t do that either. But either way, it doesn’t seem like something he was concerned about.)

I know hardly anything about Koine Greek - do you know if this makes grammatical sense, or does someone else here know? Eaglesway made a good point earlier; why is God referred to as “over all and through all and in [you] all” in Ephesians if “in all” means the same thing to Paul as “over all”?

This is very long and I may be getting the discussion off track. :blush: If you want to get back to responding to Hope Beyond Hell, I can stop focusing and bothering on this one point and let you move on. :slight_smile:

I follow a Roman Catholic blogger called Douglas Ernst. Douglas is really a tea party fan and comic book lover. So that’s what he blogs about (not that I’m a tea party fan - mind you). But today he had an interesting blog post, which might fit here. I’ll post the link here (and so nobody complains, I 'll use BIT.LY instead of IS.GD - satisfied?): Yes, dead relatives can visit you in your dreams

And for anyone having IS.GD anxiety attacks, I’ll throw in this - for the math lovers here (using OW.LY):i Largest known prime number discovered in Missouri

And how about a “controversial” quote?:

I would interject that the passage is not talking about future, as in our future, but possibly future as in* their *future!

1Co 15:21 For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming,
1Co 15:24 then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.
1Co 15:25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.
1Co 15:26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death.
1Co 15:27 For HE HAS PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET. But when He says, “All things are put in subjection,” it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him.

It says ‘HE HAS PUT ALL THINGS’ as opposed to ‘HE WILL PUT ALL THINGS’ and it must be noted that Paul is very articulate in his letters!

Isn’t that a quote from the Psalms being applied as a prophetic statement? I’ve noticed that when it comes to prophecy, things which will happen in the future are often spoken of in present tense, and that’s what I’ve assumed in the past about that particular line. How do you interpret 1 Cor 15:25 “he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet” and 1 Cor 15:28 “when all things are subjected under him”?

From a standpoint of fulfilled eschatology, These passages may well be speaking of the final reconciliation of Man to God through Christ.

You will notice
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming,
1Co 15:24 then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.

I kind of think it is a done deal :laughing:

Yes indeed… and the following two verses reiterate the fulfilled nature of this in that vs. 25 “for He must reign” is in the present tense, that is, THEN occurring in that ‘end of the age’ (AD30-70); AND conjointly within such infinitive reign vs. 26 shows that the “last enemy” ‘DEATH’ “is BEING destroyed” <-- this also is in the THEN present tense… as are ALL the other “it is raised” following in that passage, i.e., they should read as… “it is BEING raised”.

This shows the THEN present process and nature of “the resurrection” from one BODY (the old covenant) INTO another BODY (the new covenant) of which Paul elsewhere speaks of in terms of “putting off” and “putting on” aka “the old man” and “the new man” renewed in righteousness etc.

Hm, interesting. I don’t quite see it in the wording used, but I do see part of what you’re saying with the tenses involved. I think I have a slightly unusual view of time, though, which possibly affects how I read the passage - but that would take a while to explain and could not be considered, by even the most generous estimate, to be related to the current discussion! :laughing:

How do you view this as relating to modern times? At which point in Paul’s narrative are we? Has the whole - down to all-in-all - been completed already, or do we exist at some point earlier in the sequence?

Hi Anna…

As I understand it… we live in Paul’s “age/s to come” (post parousia) in the age of righteousness i.e., where God NOW views humanity as righteous BECAUSE OF the righteousness of Christ. The more humanity can see and grasp this reality the sooner the world will be the better for God being “all in all”.

Hi Anna,

I’ll throw a idea in here.

I would say the all in all, (as davo says) is accomplished, but not yet realized.

The idea that the parousia has happened (fulfilled eschatology) is tantamount to heresy to many evangelicals. Though this thought (fulfilled eschatology) is at the least defendable and at best possibly as solid a view of the parousia as scripture can give us. But it is a hard position to come to (accept) after years and centuries of orthodoxy.

To many of those on this forum, it would have to be at least noted that UR is also looked on as heresy by many evangelicals. Though many are attracted to the idea (by the HS I would say) and continue to pursue the possibility they realize that scripture has to be looked at from a different paradigm.

The fascinating journey is to look at scripture from different perspectives, (also called paradigms,) so we can grow in wisdom and understanding.

If we look and ponder with positive expectations we can learn a great deal from each other.

Just a thought.

yes, Paul is very articulate in His letters, using “until” and “when” to give perspective to the process of historical fulfillment through the “administration suitable to the completion of time”(Eph 1)

For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death. 27 For He has put all things in subjection under His feet. But when He says, “All things are put in subjection,” it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. 28 When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.

God has put all things in subjection to Christ, as a divine writ- even as Cyrus gave Nehemiah a writ to rebuild Jerusalem and the Temple.

I have been given all authority in heaven and earth by my Father…Authority to lay down my life and take it up again…

According to Colossians 1, Paul, being very articulate :wink: says

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. 18 He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything. 19 For it was the Father’s good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, 20 and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.

The writer of Hebrews clarifies this even further “YOU HAVE PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET.” For in subjecting all things to him, He left nothing that is not subject to him. But now we do not yet see all things subjected to him. 9But we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone.…

There was, there is, there will be. All things were created by Him- He always had all authority, but His authority was subject to the One who gave it to Him, the Father, who ordained that the Lamb be made a little while lower than angels for the suffering of death on a cross. For this reason also God highly exalted Him and gave Him the name above every name- but as yet we do not see every name subject to Him.

So when the loan is taken, and the workmen secured, and the materials gathered and the plan all drawn out, the house is built on promises fully secured, and its completion is only a matter of time. An administration suitable to the completion of times, the gathering together of all things into one in Christ.

Time is not yet complete. There are stages yet to begin. But in the mind of God and the faith of the saints, “It is finished”, and it is coming down out of heaven adorned as a Bride in white linen.

As is typical with many words in the English language “realised” (realized) can be understood according to more than one meaning, among a few… realised as in accomplished OR realised as in seen/perceived. Clearly not all ‘believers’ realise as in perceive this great accomplished work, but then the same has been true of humanity in general when it comes to the magnificent reconciliation wrought through Calvary that initiated the final all in all of God.

It was accomplished on the cross. it is perceived by those who see it and are in it. it will be realized when it is complete.

Who was and is and is to come :slight_smile:

1drv.ms/1RXOq5N

To THEM… it’s called ‘audience relevance’ –– “it IS finished!

The writer’s quote is from Psalm 8:4-6 which states that God has put everything under the feet of man. The writer to the Hebrews declares that At present, we do not yet see everything in subjection to him.

When God is going to do a thing, it’s as good as done! (Even though it has not yet occurred).

So the same thing with I Cor 15:27. When it says, ““God has put all things in subjection under his feet,” that is under the feet of Jesus, it is God’s plan to bring this into reality. It is God’s intention and nothing can prevent it from coming to pass. It is stated as an event which has already occurred, though it hasn’t yet occurred. When God intends to do a thing it’s as good as done! So we might as well say that God has already done it.