The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Responding to Hope Beyond Hell

STP,

Along the same line of thinking as the above quotes, for me, an important question is “Is God good?”

From some of your comments/questions, it seems like you have some Calvinistic leanings. I held to Calvinism for many years myself.

When the good Samaritan saw a person in need, even his enemy, he did not pass by but did all he could to help.

In Calvinism, God wonderfully and graciously saves the elect, but “passes by” many in need of a Saviour and leaves them in their sin. He has sufficient power to be able to extend his grace to them, grant them repentance, faith, forgiveness and salvation but he instead chooses to pass them by and leave them in misery forever.

In the Calvinist view of God, how is God good and loving, in the way Jesus describes being good and loving, when he passes by those in need rather than helping as he is perfectly capable of doing? I found this troubling as a Calvinist and opened the door for seeing God, as he is revealed in Christ, in a different light.

steve7150 wrote:Presumably this would be for God’s enemies but what did Jesus say we should do toward our enemies? Love them, pray for them, so how could it make sense after what Jesus said (which is from the Father) that God will torture/torment/punish them forever. It’s simply contradictory and makes no sense at all.

It’s not our place to punish (since we’re not omniscient or just), but it is God’s place. “Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, ‘Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.’” (Romans 12:19)STP,

I’m not arguing that it is our place to punish, I’m trying to say when Jesus tells us how to treat our enemies with compassion this is a law of God, not just a suggestion. So my point is does God act in a manner opposite of his own laws? BTW the word for “vengeance” may be better translated as “justice.”

Well, STP. You know - that’s an interesting abbreviation. It’s also the abbreviation for a brand of engine oil and gas additive. Perhaps you are adding to the vitality of your congregation? :smiley:

Sometime ago, I did pose the question to universalists: What would happen to the devil and evil angels? One actually thought they would be annihilated. As an inclusivist and Purgatorial Conditionalist - for lack of a better term - the devil and evil angels are annihilated.

To put it in Science Fiction terms: if we can think of humanity as zombies, then the unholy angels are like vampires. You need to drive a stake into their heart, in order to end their evil ways. But the zombies just don’t recognize, they are feasting off the living. :laughing:

Well, if it comes to a neo-classical view of vampires (e.g. Stokerish vampires), where they act rather like anti-saints, generally the story includes the detail that by staking them (and/or whatever) you’re actually saving their souls. At least if they were good people originally.

Like, y’know, the devil and his angels. :wink:

Good points. Of course, it’s not quite an exact comparison, since unbelievers are in active rebellion, but I do see your point, since the unbeliever isn’t able to save himself by coming to God completely on his own. Since I don’t necessarily fully hold to Calvinism, though (although you’re probably right that I have leanings in that direction), I also fully hold that each person is responsible to trust in Christ, and that it is a true act of the volition of their will to trust in Christ. One of the problems I have with Calvinism is that it doesn’t mesh with our experience. I haven’t talked with many people who say they trusted in Christ against their will. No, they saw the beauty of Christ, and WANTED to trust in Him. I realize that theologically this is because God opened their eyes to His beauty, but experientially, we can’t discount a person’s acceptance or rebellion as being their own will, or else the Bible wouldn’t be able to truly say that Pharoah hardened his heart at all.

If I make a rule (law) that my kids to go to bed at 8 pm, but I stay up to 11 pm, am I a hypocrite?

steve7150 wrote:when Jesus tells us how to treat our enemies with compassion this is a law of God, not just a suggestion. So my point is does God act in a manner opposite of his own laws?

If I make a rule (law) that my kids to go to bed at 8 pm, but I stay up to 11 pm, am I a hypocrite?smalltownpastor Posts: 69Joined: Thu Nov 26, 2015 7:08 pm
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STP,
The way I understand it God made 2 kinds of laws which were moral and ritual. Jesus didn’t really observe the Sabbath IMHO because he was Lord of the Sabbath and the Sabbath was/is a ritual law. In other words if God decided the Sabbath was on Tuesday instead of Sat it wouldn’t violate his morals. But when Jesus says to be kind & merciful and even love your enemies IMHO that is a moral law and if God tortures his enemies forever then he is violating his own moral laws and that violates his own character again IMHO.
Therefore the response that God can tell us one set of morals but keep a different set for himself is not the God of the bible IMHO.

It depends. If you are watching an episode of the Walking Dead…a super hero movie… some horror, science fiction or fantasy piece… or some old vaudeville comics - I’ll let it slide :laughing:

http://www.comicbooktherapy.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/the-walking-dead-comic-action-figures.jpg

Good points. Of course, it’s not quite an exact comparison, since unbelievers are in active rebellion

But most people are more ignorant then in active rebellion. I was not brought up in a Christian family so had no idea Jesus was much different then Moses. In 2002 for the first time in my life I had the gospel preached to me and it struck a cord. What if I would have died before 2002? Would I spend eternity in hell? Would I be annihilated?
You know in Rev 20 when the unbelievers are tossed into the LOF and the books are opened? Have you ever considered that those books are not books of their works but the gospels being preached?

Hmm, well, how bad is hell in your opinion? Even if it’s time-limited, is it torment? And if so, wouldn’t that itself kind of go against your argument (unless you think it’s acceptable to torment our enemies for short periods of time)?

Elaborate on that a bit for me.

Revelation 20:12 says, “And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done.”

It seems fairly straightforward that the books contain “what they had done.” But I’m interested in another viewpoint is there is one. (I did a quick search for it, but couldn’t find anything about it online.)

And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done."

Clearly we are judged by what they had done or to put it another way “by our works.” That is a biblical principal but does God need books to keep records on us or can “what was written in the books” mean it tells the story of Jesus and him dying for our sins. It is an assumption that the books contain our works but I think the gospels or the bible is read to those in the LOF.

Even the demons believe (know).  
They will know, but will they trust? Or will their knowledge be more like that of the demons?  
For His own glory.  
I'm not sure that can be proven from Scripture. But I guess that's what this whole book is seeking to prove.  
Every Calvinist that I've personally known did in fact believe that God loves every person. There does exist a brand of hyper-Calvinism in which they believe God does not love every person, but that is not the majority of Calvinists, and it is even spoken of as unbiblical by most Calvinists.  
Jeremiah 3:8, "that faithless one, Israel, I had sent her away with a decree of divorce."  
I don't know, but I've been told (haven't delved into it too much in my own study yet), that the Bible never calls anyone except believers "the children of God." This seems to agree with all the Scripture that I can think ofb, but, like I said, I haven't done an extensive study on the topic.  
This is a good list of verses to be begin that study with! Some are quite compelling (especially Ps 82:6, Acts 17:28-29, and Mal 2:10).  
"Give me your heart" could be a call to sanctification in this context rather than initial repentance.  
And yet, the passage does specifically say that they must ask in order to receive those good gifts.  
So why not do that now, before allowing them to experience the agony of an age of chastisement?  
All of creation testifies to His existence (Romans 1:20). No one is condemned for not hearing, but for rejecting even the truth plainly available to them.

steve7150 wrote:if God tortures his enemies forever then he is violating his own moral laws and that violates his own character again IMHO.
Therefore the response that God can tell us one set of morals but keep a different set for himself is not the God of the bible IMHO.

Hmm, well, how bad is hell in your opinion? Even if it’s time-limited, is it torment? And if so, wouldn’t that itself kind of go against your argument (unless you think it’s acceptable to torment our enemies for short periods of time)?

We know God destroys from the OT and maybe 70AD Jerusalem but destruction is one thing yet torture/torment is quite another don’t you think?
I don’t know what hell or really the lake of Fire is. It could be a spiritual fire that burns away sin, do you think that’s possible? The greek word for fire is “pur” , it could mean purify?

It may not take an age, it may not be agony; as to why not now, I think we can trust God with that.

I agree that “destruction” sounds qualitatively different from “torment.” But which kind of punishment did Jesus seem to be talking about in Matthew 25:46? Because if aion has to do with quality in that verse, as you’ve said I believe, then it’s saying the punishment is very bad.

According to this website, there’s an etymological connection, so that is interesting.

That’s my point, I suppose, for this whole debate. Even if we’re confused about God’s purposes concerning hell, we should trust Him to know better than us.

Agreed. What drives the discussion for me is the realization that our beliefs about the afterlife do affect how we interpret and respond in this life; it’s just a human trait to want to know for sure.

What a diabolically errant assumption… no wonder you lean the way you do; this is nothing but the party-line albeit couched in language of I’d rather believe other than I do but this is the way I feel I am led. :astonished:

“Active rebellion” precludes ANY ignorance, which for the majority of people ‘ignorance’ is exactly where they are at… either through the nature of the case OR more likely by the poor caricature of ‘God’ peddled by religianity. But, to cut you some slack even Paul in his own rampant religiosity found the grace of God due to his own ignorance of unbelief, as per…

The biblical story has MORE much more to say about covenanted people being in “active rebellion” (true “unbelievers”) and the consequences thereof of not repenting and following the way of righteousness etc.

But all that said… IF you truly believed (and I doubt deep down you really do) God’s ultimate purpose for the vast bulk of humanity was their eternal conscious torment then why fritter away the hours here over seemingly pointless arguments WHEN there are friends, neighbours and strangers OUT THERE in your own purview in peril of this ‘eternal conscious torment’ you cling to, and yet “how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard” when you are safe and cosy in here playing spiritual scrabble? :open_mouth:

I appreciate your very candid response.

A few things…

I don’t believe in ECT anymore (but close). You can read an update to my beliefs on my introduction thread.

I’m not on these forums to convince anyone. I’m learning a lot about UR, trying to understand it as best as I can, and the best way I know to do that is through dialogue: challenging, talk-about-the-tough-stuff dialogue. If I’m ever to become an Evangelical Universalist, it’s going to be through studying, thinking, and talking it through. That’s what I’m doing here.

You’re right, I should share the gospel more. We all should, right?

Yep I get that… :slight_smile:

I get that too. I’m not an EU, though I was once an evangelical but not these days. I am more an inclusionist which is in a similar direction as universalism, however I’ve ditched certain prior assumptions (we all have them) while embracing others, and yep dialogue helps formulate these things. :mrgreen:

How can you hold fully hold that, in light of the fact that millions, if not billions, of people on earth have never had the opportunity? How can they be responsible if they’ve never heard the gospel even once? Indeed millions have not even heard the name of Jesus Christ except in profanity, and many have not heard the name at all.