The Evangelical Universalist Forum

How do you defend God's love against His other attributes?

I just dont get it. Like falling in a big hole I guess.

“Subsequently consummated at Christs Coming of 70 AD?”

I get that a person can believe that. People believe all kinds of things.

But I dont get how a person can portray it as historically obvious.

“This is not rocket science it is historically fulfilled?”

Where is this historically obvious “Christs Coming of 70 AD”? I am completely in the dark about it.

The old covenant was over** the instant Jesus was raised from the dead**, it was over when the Holy Spirit was poured out in Jerusalem and new creatures in Christ Jesus began to come forth. The new covenant began immediately, written in His blood and sealed by the Holy Spirit, initiating a new and living way into the holy place, and a new High Priest.

“Neither circumcision or uncircumcision is anything, but a new creation.”

70 AD was just the burial of that which had already been anulled, and altho it fulfilled that which had been written in terms of the the removal of the former house, it did not fulfill what is written about the consummation of the latter house-

Until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ.

Jesus said he would “come” in the power and glory of his Father…

It is possible to recognise this prophetic language of Judgment by looking at Yahweh’s judgment “comings” as described in the OT… where the COMING ‘Day of the Lord’ is described in terms of being “on the clouds” or “a days of clouds” … and these invariably came in the form of an invading foreign power.

This accords with the likes of Lk 21:24 & Rev 11:2… in Jesus’ day = Rome’s conquests throughout Palestine and its surrounds in the Roman-Jewish wars of AD66-70. (read Josephus)

So, knowing that Yahweh “has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man” he who had “ears to hear and eyes to see” would have looked at the events of those “latter days” and concluded… “This is that of which Jesus spoke”, and this would have been in line with Jesus’ words here…

And further…

Jesus’ “there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom” can be ignored, but it can’t be successfully explained away to mean something other than what was plain speech to those he was addressing. Either that or there are some very very ancient people still walking around Palestine. :blush:

For all intents and purposes in redemptive terms YES the OC was over, BUT, there was an outworking of the demise of the OC in terms of its power and place over Israel… so in that sense it was NOT instantly over, and as such there is a lot of internal textual evidence showing this.

The NT covers this period of time of the diminishing OC and the burgeoning NC – this inter-testamental period spanned 40yrs AD30-70… prefigured in Israel’s ancient 40yr trials and tribulations from bondage to full freedom. The NT is replete with texts showing the OC system as still active post Cross, although of course with as I said, ever diminishing effect…

Note the words “becoming – growing – ready”… the NC made the OC obsolete AND YET there was a process in train whereby it and those clinging to it would be fully “brought to naught” (1Cor 2:6).

Note again the present tense of “is passing away” juxtaposed with “what remains”.

Again, the passing “darkness” was the OC, while shining true light the NC. For a time they co-existed side by side and it is this overlapping of the ages or covenants that Paul describes in terms of “the bondwoman” and “the freewoman” here…

For Paul, those “born according to the flesh” i.e., those of the OC who were persecuting those “born according to the Spirit” i.e., NC believers, are to be equated with Jesus’ “goats and sheep” of Mt25.

Again there is abundant evidence throughout Acts demonstrating that the law was still in vogue to a strong degree in terms of Jewish customs etc, even to the degree Paul’s participation therein… Acts 15:1, 5, 24; 18:18; 21:20-24.

That manifestation came in terms of Christ’s AD70 Parousia when that which was “ready to pass away” that is, the Temple and the whole of the old covenant’s national life that it represented, met its event horizon.

“the consummation of the latter house-” I’d be interested in what texts you propose show an end and consummation of the latter house?? As I understand there is no “eschaton” relative to the new covenant… biblical eschatology is all about “the end” of the old covenant age, i.e., there is no end of the new covenant age.

That is a statement made as fact that has not been entered in evidence, beyond “As I understand…”

As I understand, we are God’s house, the tabernacle of living stones, still under construction and as yet incomplete, fully existent in the heavenly realms and yet to be revealed in fulness to the world, a “habitation of God in the Spirit”, “coming down out of heaven” even as Jesus was the bread of life coming down from heaven.

As to whether this occurs as an “advent/event” or as an epiphany/apokalupsis upon the whole earth over a generation or over some years remains to be seen but is the eschaton of the new covenant in my opinion- and yet to be fulfilled. The veil of the heavens will be rolled back like a scroll, every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him, the word of the Lord will cover the earth as the water covers the sea, the lion will lay down with the Lamb and they will learn war no more, the fulness of the Gentiles will have come in, we will be revealed with Him in glory… all as yet unfullfilled in my view.

But my question to you was not about that. As i said, I understand what you believe… I just dont get how you can portray it as historically obvious. It is an interpretration of verses of scripture and(from my view) a super imposed construct over the facts of the last 1,985 years or so. There is no obvious historical validity to the idea that Jesus’ coming was fulfilled in the razing of Jerusalem. It is a mystical assumption. There are abundant verses providing a different view as to whether or not there is an eschaton to the new covenant- which also require interpretative understandings.

Two great universalist portions lending weight to a new covenant eschaton are in Ephesians

Eph 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance** until the redemption of the purchased possession**, unto the praise of his glory.


Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.


And these integrate with Romans 8…

For I reckon that the sufferings** of this present time** are not worthy to be compared with** the glory which shall be revealed(apokalypthanai) in us**.

19 For the earnest expectation of the creation awaits the manifestation(apokalypsin) of the sons of God.

20 For the creation was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who has subjected the same in hope,

21 Because the creation itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travails in pain together until now.

23 And not only they, but ourselves also,** which have the firstfruits of the Spirit**, even we ourselves groan within ourselves,** waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body**.

So there is the one eschaton that consumates in the redemption of our bodies. We have the first fruits(Ro), the pledge guanteeing the purchased possesion(Eph) now. We await the fulfillment, and that will initate a further eschaton(ages to come) that is consumated in the redemption of the whole creation into that glorious liberty in which our eschaton is fulfilled. . Our “being revealed”… “coming down out of heaven” so to speak, that “glory which is to be revealed in us”, will begin the “period of the restoration of all things spoken of by all the prophets from the foundation of the world”… the “ages to come” of Ephesians 2:7.

Act 3:19 Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord; 20 and that He may send Jesus, the Christ appointed for you, 21 whom heaven must receive until the period of restoration of all things about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time.

None of these interpretaions are historically obvious. I am just presenting my view of the scriptures.

Perhaps I was overly generous with my “obvious” but I have to reiterate that the generation to whom these things were written such would have made perfect sense given the prophetic words spoken to them by the Saviour.

Paul’s “dispensation of the fullness of the times” doesn’t indicate an end (consummation) of the new covenant yet to come, rather the time in view was Jesus’ and Paul’s own “this generation” (Mt 24:34; Lk 17:25). This becomes obvious (for sake of a better word) when you compare the following texts…

Clearly their time THEN was “the dispensation of the fullness of times”… when Jesus came to redeem his people from their sins (Mt 1:21).

The NT biblical generation were the ones upon whom Paul said “the ends of the ages have come” – note, “have” NOT “will”; it was a then present reality. They were living in the terminal generation in terms of the ending of one age transitioning into the next… which again is why Paul describes the times following this consummation as “the ages to come” as per Eph 2:7.

Then of course there is this…

Again this is not “interpretation” this is plain text giving a plain message, and if audience relevance means anything those to whom it was written grasped this. We are reading their story their history… humanity (us) in “the ages to come” are the beneficiaries of this fulfillment; to quote Jesus “it is finished!

I’m following this with great interest, I hope the thread goes on a good bit longer. :smiley:

I’ll be your huckleberry :slight_smile:

When the fulness of time had come God sent forth His Son…

Yes, the fulness of time in relation to the sending forth of the Son had come, so He was sent forth. “Who was foreknown from the foundation of the world and was manifested in these last times for you.” Peter “manifested” is a key word in understanding prophetic fulfillment.

Still much interpretation as to the application and meaning of the words- by no means obvious even to Peter…

“Whom the heavens must receive until the period of the restoration of all things spoken of by all the prophets from the foundation of the world” Acts 3

The heavens still receive Him. When he comes forth at the end of this age, the “epiphanea, parousia, apokalypsis” will be completed for this age but there will still be ages to come in the dispensation of the fulness(pleroma) of times, until the “manifestation” of the restoration of all things is complete. Pleroma is the same word as in “For so it pleased the Father for all the fulness to dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile all things to himself by the blood of His cross”(Col 1) "filled up to all the fulness of God (Eph 3)

Hebrews 2:8 You have put all things in subjection under his feet.” For in that He put all in subjection under him, He left nothing that is not put under him. But now we do not yet see all things put under him.

Ro 8:23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body. 24 For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance.

Hoping for what we do not see is the very meaning of “eshcaton”(imo) as it is unveiled throughout the administration of it. which is ongoing until it has all “come down from heaven”, i.e. manifested.

It is finished, He has overcome, but that seed of restoration first filled the body of Jesus, then the body of Christ, ultimately the whole creation/cosmos including time. It has “times” yet in which to play out, therefore there is still an eschaton remaining, one for which the entire creation groans in eager anticipation,

For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, *in hope 21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.

What an eshcaton that is!

2 Tim 4 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

1 Timothy 6:14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

1 Peter 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

Jesus has appeared, is appearing and will appear. He was and is and is to come. Until all time is fulfilled/completed, there is an eschaton.

pléróma: fullness, a filling up
Original Word: πλήρωμα, ατος, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: pléróma
Phonetic Spelling: (play’-ro-mah)
Short Definition: fullness, fulfillment, completion
Definition: (a) a fill, fullness; full complement; supply, patch, supplement, (b) fullness, filling, fulfillment, completion.

Time is being filled up, the receptacle for all of Gods works. If God rested from His works on the 7th day does that mean there was no more eshcaton? It could appear so taken out of whole cloth.

1 Cor 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him,** then** shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

There is a when and a then and therefore there is an eshcaton.

God will become all in all, he has not yet, but the work is done in Chrst- I think on that we agree- “It is finished” in Christ, but is yet to appear in pleroma/fulness. That will occur through a dispensation of the fulness of time, the completion of the ages, and at the very least, there is an eschaton to the subjection of the last adversary, and God becoming all in all. As long as time remains there will be adversaries and they are being subjected, until every knee bows, in heaven, on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confesses that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.

REV 5;11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;

12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

13** And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.**

verse 13 being the fulfillment of Phil 2:9-11; Col 1:15-20; Eph 1:9-11; Rom 8:18-25; 1 Cor 15:22-28 and Romans 11:30-36

Clearly(to me anyway :slight_smile:) as long as there is a future, and that future having a point of closure in which God has become all and all, every enemy subjected, reconciled and restored- all gathered inbto one in love and light and life- there is a dispensation as yet not dispensed, an administration not yet complete, an eshcaton as yet unfulfilled in earth(as it is in heaven) - yet to “come down from heaven” but “coming” like the dawn grows into the fulness of mid-day.

oikonomia: stewardship, administration
Original Word: οἰκονομία, ας, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: oikonomia
Phonetic Spelling: (oy-kon-om-ee’-ah)
Short Definition: stewardship
Definition: management of household affairs, stewardship, administration.

Eph 1:10 NIV to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment–to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ.
NAS an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth.

We are in the midst of a great administration. The plan set forth before the foundation of the world. The plan paid for and the resources secured when God sent forth His Son, the plan complete when God becomes all in all.*

Huckleberry

Q :What is the origin of the expression ‘I’ll be your Huckleberry’? What exactly does it mean?

A : What it means is easy enough. To be one’s huckleberry — usually as the phrase I’m your huckleberry — is to be just the right person for a given job, or a willing executor of some commission. Where it comes from needs a bit more explaining.
(for that interesting explanation, see: worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-huc1.htm)

:smiley: :smiley:

That huckle almost lost his berries :laughing:

I found another Huckleberry!

:laughing:

youtu.be/oVVt9aBNa1U
Another Huckleberry :slight_smile:

I’ve use this example before. If my young son played in the road I would tell him the dangers. If he continued, my punishment/wrath would become more severe until the lesson was learned to stay out of the street.

No… you are losing the wood for the trees. The fullness of time was in relation to Israel’s redemption… thus accordingly the Son was sent forth to procure this.

So… you have Jesus coming back and yet STILL MORE to happen BEFORE or UNTIL an apparent ““manifestation” of the restoration of all things is complete.” – it’s bizarre that no texts say this; this is “interpretation” driving to the text.

It might well be you opinion but THAT is not the meaning of eschaton.

The NT believers “hoped” for what they DIDN’T have BECAUSE they, unlike us, were living in the pre-parousia age, i.e., before “the end”. The writer of Proverbs says this…

Futurism of any flavour always leaves the heart sick because it’s still waiting for redemption to be complete i.e., it promotes an incomplete deficient redemption, that is, it is NOT finished… bad news! No wonder the modern church is sick. I’d like a dollar for every bemoan I’ve heard… “Oh I just wish Jesus would come back and rescue us out of this evil of a world.” <<-- losers! The more we can see that this is God’s good world and that helping people see that He believes IN THEM the sooner we’ll be more effective at neutralising the evils of errant men. People tend to do angry things ultimately because they believe God is angry at them… religianity hasn’t helped in this error.

Ahh no… :ugeek: so Christ’s work is all done, but somehow :question: :question: God is NOT “all in all”… how logically and biblically does that work? – it doesn’t.

As I understand it… God is NOW “all in all” BECAUSE Jesus having reigned and defeated death handed it all over to the Father.

Now, before anyone foolishly chimes in with an ill thought through “All in all, O’ so God is already in all the evil people on this planet, yeah good one!” – to every “Christ in you” confessing Christian – ever done anything sinful or dare I say “evil” – is Christ still in you?? Now THAT might sound a tad harsh, but sometimes the lazy fundamentalist reactionary mind needs challenging.

“The death” (1Cor 15) Jesus defeated on behalf of humanity was spiritual death i.e., relational or covenantal death. That’s the ‘death’ Adam died “the day” he ate… you will recall Adam lived “physically” a tad longer than “for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.” Remember… Jesus spoke of the kingdom not in terms of physicality but rather “within” or “among you” – those who had eyes to see it grasped it.

The line of this topic :laughing: Thank you all

Val

They don’t need defending. :smiley:

If they died only a spiritual death, why did God shut them out of the Garden, lest they return and eat from the Tree of Life and live forever? Wouldn’t God want them to live forever spiritually? After all, didn’t Jesus come that people might have (spiritual) life and have it more abundantly?

Rather, didn’t God keep Adam and Eve out of the Garden to prevent them from returning to the garden and eat from the Tree of Life so that they wouldn’t live forever PHYSICALLY in their sinful condition?

I think the meaning is, “In the day you eat of it, the death process will surely begin in you.”

It might be compared to a doctor today saying to a cancer patient, “When you take radiation, the cancer cells will surely die.” The doctor doesn’t mean that the cancer cells will die the moment or even the day when the patient takes radiation, but rather will BEGIN to die at that time."

Sorry Valliant… just finishing off some thoughts with Paidion.

This here I think is the nub of the issue… that they could have access to the Tree of Life and “live forever” logically dictates that physical death, i.e., biological demise was ALREADY present and a natural part of the created order.

Had A & E partaken of the Tree of Life in their now fallen state SIN would have been immortalised and man screwed. We all sin, it’s natural… Paul said “he who has died is freed from sin” and so it is we all die the physical death we were naturally meant to die. Prior to Jesus defeating (spiritual) death humanity at natural death was locked up in Hades (the grave) i.e., “no one has ascended to the Father”. Thus when Jesus ascended He led captivity (spiritual death) captive giving gifts (grace, liberty and life) to men.

Again, that physical pain and death was a natural part of the created order is a given, for whatever food they partook of (prior to their infraction) was in the process of biological demise (death) as it was sustaining them, i.e., giving them LIFE. Also… that’s Eve’s pain in conception/childbirth was “multiplied” is obviously indicative of the presence of pain pre-fall as well. As perfect in one sense that Eden was Christendom has magicallised paradise to something it logically never was.

Yes indeed Don, and that’s what the ensuing redemptive stories of Scripture are all about… Adam – Israel – Christ; undoing that spiritual/relational separation i.e., spiritual death.

Yes that always seems to be standard fair in attempting to juggle away what seems obvious from the text, but I find it most unconvincing IMO. Bible search the phrase “surely die” and you won’t find one text where the interpolation “you shall surely die” can have “begin” with any credibility squeezed into it… again IMO. “You shall surely die” was a direct executable judgment without any equivocation or doubt as to its certainty. It basically meant “from the moment you ____ you shall die” i.e., there will be no turning back.

This above although indeed referencing physical death would still be understood as executable via divine edict with reasonably short term effect, as opposed to living a long life full of begetting “sons and daughters” and finally dying at a ripe old age near a millennium later… that seems far from “in the day…”.

A & E sinned and from that “day” onward their spiritual relationship with God was fractured with the inevitable consequence being expulsion and exile (spiritual death) from His presence. Until Jesus rectified this Adam’s problem was humanity’s problem. This at least is how I’m presently understanding this scenario.

Another awesome thread i came across that deserves renewal :wink: :smiley:

Davo- Taking in all you say as far as the transition of the Covenants makes total sense, with Jesus saying * it is finished* as the piece de resistance!!! For me and some others though, why did Paul, James and John continue talking about sinners needing repentance since Jesus had accomplished it all?? Life has gone on a very long time now since the Parousia and a majority are not accepting and following Jesus. How do you see this reality fitting with everything having been accomplished??? When do you see God wrapping it all up and having everything restored back to before the first sin occurred?? I thoroughly enjoy your analysis and the style in which you share it mate. Just wanting to have you tie up some loose ends :sunglasses: :smiling_imp: