Jason, speaking of redemption you said…
Yes Jason… THAT’S what I’m saying –– redemption WAS FULLY realised “later”! The only difference I can see on that score between us is you have a yet STILL incomplete redemption because, you as agree (“* Even you realize redemption in some sense wasn’t complete on the cross,…*”); the fullness of redemption IS indelibly linked with the parousia… something you’ve pushed out into an endless never never.
I view the Cross and Parousia of Christ as a single unit… being historic book-ends as it were to God’s one-time redemptive event, where as a Divine consequence of Israel’s redemption (the promise of scripture) which speaks of covenant restoration (something realised in Jesus and his firstfruit saints) reconciliation then came to the broader world of mankind.
That “sounds” great and I absolutely agree with this sentiment, BUT having grown up in evangelicalism my experience knows that this is NOT what religianity (as I put it) actually practices. The mindset is typically that we are dirty-dog sinners always in need of some sanctifying “behavioural modification” i.e., the self-righteousness of “works”.
That Jason is an odd comment to make when you yourself expect God to do that very thing to the entire universe… “one day”.
Yeah, such as?? What happened with regards to the DoJ in AD70 was in direct fulfilment of Jesus’ prophetic words in the so-called ‘mini apocalypse’ of the gospels. When it is realised that “world” (Mt 24:3) does NOT mean our “time-space universe” but rather their “Old Covenant world” or Mosaic age, then that understanding changes everything.
It was Jesus the first of the firstfruits AND his chosen firstfruit saints i.e., the body of Christ, who wrought redemption ON BEHALF OF “all Israel”. The disciples joined in Jesus’ redemptive work to finish what He began, again ON BEHALF OF “all Israel” – to “fulfil all things written” – remember, Jesus was talking to THEM, NOT US, He was NOT talking over their heads…
Lk 21:20-23 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
This then correlates with Daniel’s extremely CLEAR word in Chapter 12…
Dan 12:7 *Then I heard the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand to heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever, that it shall be for a time, times, and half a time; and when the power of the holy people has been completely shattered, all these things shall be finished. *
“The power of the holy people” (Israel) was “completely shattered” WHEN? …the 3½ yrs period AD66-70, aka “42 mths” AKA “a time, times, and half a time”, culminating in the Temple being razed and THEIR whole “world” of law-righteousness crashing down upon them. THAT was the final close of the Old Covenant age… what was inaugurated in Christ’s Ministry and ratified through Christ’s Cross was subsequently consummated at Christ’s Coming of AD70. It is not rocket science, this IS history AND it IS fulfilled! http://old.wargamer.com/forums/smiley/headbash.gif
I’ve NEVER said we’re all sinless… what pantelism affirms is that sin is no longer held to man’s change BECAUSE that charge was borne fully by Christ! I don’t need to post all the texts affirming this as you should know them… instead of paying lip-service you might try believing them Jason.