The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Judaism and the Mystical Christ

In Parallel Sayings Richard Hooper usesnthe words “most” or “many” when tied to “scholars” as if inherently authoritative. Take this example…

Many New Testament scholars, for instance, believe the apostle Paul’s out of body experiences were brought on by epileptic seizures- which, in turn, were brought on bychemical shifts within the brain, William James pointed out a century ago that even alcohol can induce mystical seizures"… and then goes on to explain brain chemical reactions in the brain… as if such absolute speculation could have any weight. It is more likely Paul was just intensely and intimately involved with the Ultimate Reality, the Lord Jesus, but in any case- what scholarship is there to confirm such an outrageous statement? None.

In another place he states that “Certain groups of scholars, such as the Jesus Seminar, suggest that as few as 18% of all the words attributed to Jesus in the canonical Gospels came from him, and even these are not in their original form.” The list of these kinds of assertions is long already, and mostly just as vague and unsupportable.

Over the next few chapters, however, the author bulds a pretty intricate Budhist/Hindu perspective using the sayings of Jesus (which are only 18% certified ;o)

I have only read about 100 pages so far, but the book is making what I consider to be a polite but blatant attempt to disembowel the gospel and interpret it through a Gnostic perspective that mytholizes(? :smiley: ) every supernatural foundation of Christian belief and re-interprets the words of Jesus(the ones out of the 18% that work for him I suppose) into a Budhist/Hindu concept.

While I agree that Jesus’ words do need to be looked at from an mystical mind-set, I found Hooper making generalized statements about Jesus that I thought revealed an intellectual prejudice that went beyong objectivity- but resembled the same kind of attitude that westerners have in reverse. Jesus is neither western or eastern. He is unique. :slight_smile:

It appears( he says so at least) that a major influence in his turn from Christianity was an experience where he asked a pastor, as a seminary student, if he really believed an Indian person who grew up Hindu and never heard of Jesus would go to hell. When answered in the affirmative- he made a huge turn towards eastern mystics- WHICH I TOTALLY UNDERSTAND. Too bad he wasnot introduced to the true gospel at some point.

Primarily, I just disagree with his conclusions and definitely feel they presented in a strongly slanted way, not just in a pluralist direction, but essentially reducing all mysticism to a Hindu spirituality carrying a Budhist ethic. The book is an outright debunk of western Christian religion-WHICH I HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH ( :laughing: )- but it is also an antithetical presentation to what any believer in the risen Christ believes, including many of what I consider the intrinsicly true foundations of the teachings of Jesus Christ. At such a point the pluralism disappates into an outright assault on the fundamental faith of “Christ crucified” (imo).

Hooper does not believe in the virgin birth or the resurrection, nor even a shadow of integrity in the histories or epistles contained in the Bible. It is all parabolic mythology or outright junk. In my opinion it is an anti-Christian piece of literature.

Of course, I am not saying this is your view, fatherlearningtolove, in toto, and I have enjoyed many aspects of the 6 chapters of your blog I have read and will continue to read… but you recommended the book, and it is an answer to some things I was wondering reading the blog. That’s why I asked where you were coming from regarding Jesus as Lord of All… I had no desire to offend or go on the offensive, just to clarify.

I think certain aspects of budhism are beautiful. As wisdom, there is much in it to be gained and I have always seen the similarities in areas because I studied Budhism and Krishna consciousness before I had my meeting with the ultimate reality and He revealed Himself as Christ crucified and called me to follow. Not everyone gets to experience that, but I did.

But I do see the cross as a WAY. That is how He revealed Himself to me. His way of self denial and the mystical aspects of His being the I AM- radiance of the Father’s glory and exact representation of His nature, as well as the work of spiritual seeking and growing- have been largely cut out of western Christianity and I have said for many years Jesus was probably more like a guru than any contemporary preacher or teacher I have seen- and definitely a mystic(for me, THE mystic)- but even with all of that, the core difference for me is His death, resurrection and ascenscion above all heavens, bearing the name above every name is undeniable to me- being, during my meeting with ultimate reality, integrated within the cells of my being so to speak.

Of course I would not expect anyone to take my word for that, but I do say it is true.

Me too. Why is your time more important than mine? I’ve already given much of my time to you…

I’ve pretty much done this with you already - if you want more, read my blog. But your questioning began to smell more and more like heresy hunting, and that’s when I decide to use evasive maneuvers - because I realize that it takes time to understand what I’m trying to explain, and to try to give short summaries would be selling it short already. But if you’re going to condemn me based on a short summary, I might as well simply leave you scratching your head.

I have other important things to use my time for as well. Yes, I have spent quite a big deal of my time working on writings - writings I have not received a single penny for, by the way, and really not much more than heartburn (with an occasional compliment) in the way of reaction from readers. But I have 4 children and a lovely wife, I read quite a bit, watch a lot of documentaries, and occasionally “waste” time watching entertainment or reading comic books as well. So it seems a bit arrogant of you to pretend that your list is more important than mine.

If you want to be a writer, you need to follow the rules and conventions that writers, publishers, marketers, etc., follow. For books on Amazon, Barnes and Noble, etc., it means self publishing or getting a publisher. And a agent - if possible. But you know what? From the book description and writer bio on Amazon, I know exactly where they are coming from. Same goes for author interviews. The interviewer asks direct questions and the author answers them. Or an author goes on a speaking tour and gives talks. And the author answers audience questions. You have to market yourself. And if you wish folks to read your blog, then you need to provide relevant and meaningful content, share stuff on social media, work with SEO, etc.

I’m just a mere consumer. But a consumer with advertisers, social media, other media (i.e. TV, movie, radio, magazine), etc., competing like they do, for my attention. So if you wish to reach me and other consumers, you need to do what other authors do. Answer questions like they do, give summaries like they do - let everyone know where you are “really” coming from. It’s all very simple, really. It’s sometimes hard to implement.

If you embrace a form of pluralism, I won’t condemn you. Or any other ism you might follow. Since I hung around for years in academia, taking literature and philosophy courses, I have encountered just about every ism under the sun. But I always knew where the literature writers and philosophers were “really” coming from. And I have hung around for years with folks from the Ute, Ojibwa, and Lakota tribes. I have gone where few white folks have traveled. I’ve participated in their ceremonies. I hung around their medicine men and women. I’ve hung around “real” holy people from India - not the kind that “advertise” or charge money. I never condemned them for heresy or anything else. And they never refused me hospitality or joining their spiritual endeavors.

If I may interject… I don’t think Randy is being abrasive, but trying to provide you with insight to increase your readership, if you so desire.

That is correct, Gabe. Here’s another thing I never revealed. I live about five minutes away from the National Headquarters of the Theosophical Society. I have a lifetime membership and have been a member for years. Not because I believe in their teachings or philosophy. But because they have the best library on religion and philosophy around. Whenever I watched a speaker - live or by video on the web - I knew exactly where they were coming from. The society doesn’t sponsor or permit debates during the presentations - only asking questions. And to be a member, you just need to state you are in accord with their 3 objects:

To form a nucleus of the universal brotherhood of humanity, without distinction of race, creed, sex, caste or color.
To encourage the comparative study of religion, philosophy and science.
To investigate unexplained laws of nature and the powers latent in humanity.

The first 2 are easy to embrace. The third one I can also side with, as long as scientific methodology, double blind studies and statistical analysis, are used. And folks can see current webcasts and recorded webcasts free. Now folks in the Christian churches might condemn me for heresy for joining them - even if my reasons are to use their extensive library collection.

And for examples of spiritual writings on Amazon, look at:

Mystic Visions: Black Elk’s Great Vision Clarified by Quentin H. Young
The Incredible Life of a Himalayan Yogi: The Times, Teachings and Life of Living Shiva: Baba Lokenath Brahmachari by Shuddhaanandaa Brahmachari
This House Is On Fire: The Life of Shri Dhyanyogi by by Shri Anandi Ma

I know these authors personally and they are good friends of mine. I have been in ceremony with Quentin. I have hung around Dhyanyogi, while he was still living. And Shuddhaanandaa’s work with the poor in India, would rival that of Mother Theresa.

Hanging around academia (i.e. College of DuPage) and the Theosophical Society, has exposed me to all kinds of isms. For Theosophists, they usually advocate some form of esotericism. And if they embrace the Christian tradition, it’s usually some form of esotericism or gnosticism. As a former academic, I’m more concerned whether any position is logically coherent and can be logically defended. In the forum here, there are rules of engagement. Folks are protected to some degree, by those rules and the admins and moderators. I personally follow those set up in academia. But if someone didn’t want any flack or heat, then they really shouldn’t open a thread up, in the first place. Or to state a popular saying:

Listen - my problem here is that internet critics are some of the most demanding and lazy people out there. I put so much work into my writing already, and have gotten nothing back from it. Not a dime. Occasionally I get a compliment, but more often I get people who want to argue. I’m so, so tired of arguing. And if I smell a heresy hunt, I’m not going to even try to lure you in to read my work - you’re not worth the time, if you’re a heresy hunter. That’s a headache I don’t need in my life - and I know because I’ve had too many of them already. I think I’ve given plenty in this thread - don’t like it, don’t read. Or if it makes you curious, go read.

The problem I see in internet discussion groups is that all too often, people only participate in them because they like to argue. It gives them some sort of sick twisted sadistic pleasure. So they go around looking for things to disagree with - and this causes them no pain (at least none that is immediately visible) because they are arguing with “anonymous” strangers. So they don’t lose friendships over this addiction. And it’s a consumer mentality - they don’t really care to try to understand where anyone is coming from, they just want to disagree and “prove” themselves to be right. I can’t tell you how much heartburn this mentality has caused me. It’s so, so hard to build up a readership base these days, because publishing companies only care about people who have already done so. You have to do all the work yourself. And let’s be honest - I am not a salesman. I have never been a good salesman - I actually tried it one summer when I was in college, and I was terrible at it. It’s because I actually take no for an answer. But I’m good at writing. If I had other people who were my salesmen - people who liked my writing enough to promote it for me - I could have a good readership base. But right now I have to self-promote, and it sucks. Especially because all anyone wants to do is argue with me. I’ve had it. I’m not arguing any more. It’s too much trouble. Go read my blog, or don’t - it’s up to you. But I will not be drawn into an argument.

No, I won’t read it. And that would go for many folks, if you don’t tell them where you are coming from. And it all depends on what you mean by heresy and who’s on the other side. For Christians embracing exclusivism and traditional hell teachings,folks here would be embracing heresy - by embracing universalism. As far as arguments go, I usually refrain - unless someone attacks me first. It’s the martial arts philosophy of aikido and jujitsu. And I can guarantee that you won’t be presenting any position here, that I haven’t already encountered in academia or at the Theosophical Society.

That’s absolutely fine with me. But don’t try to manipulatively guilt me into walking into what smells like a trap to me.

It sounds more like delusions or paranoia to me. If you want to know how Eagles Way, myself or others respond, then study how we engage folks in other discussions. It’s called profiling. If you do it well, then you can almost predict how someone will respond. It’s just the science of psychology.

Have you ever written a blog and tried to promote it - specifically a blog about controversial religious subjects? If you had, you’d know what it’s like to constantly be hounded by OCD types who want to prove to the world that they are right and you are wrong. It’s not paranoia - it’s what I’ve lived.

If you look at my profile and click About, it will show you the blog I have written for years. Normally I write about technology and social media. But I have also written about spiritual topics - some controversial. But you notice that each post is tagged with keywords,for folks to find them via SEO. And I promote them on social media channels (i.e. Twitter with about 30 K followers right now). And the best way to prove you are right is to take literature and philosophy courses, at your local, in-district junior college. After a few literature and philosophy positional papers under your belt, you can hand most naysayers.

I think I could have a civilized conversation with anyone, about anything, and there are no heresy hunters here that I know of. I am not speaking for Randy, but in my original question, I just wanted to know if you saw the other three religions(kaballah,budhism,hinduism) as equal paths,* and if you saw Jesus as Messiah, or as just one of several avatars. *

I have read enough of your blog to know you have a lot of knowledge and some insight- but after reading 6 sections I could not tell where you stand on those things. I have no desire to “straighten anybody out”, but since you posted your material here to read, I think it was fair to ask.

I hate to assume -but since you are a bit dodgy about simple answers I am going to assume you’re teaching comes out of the wheelhouse of the book you linked to, “Parallel Sayings”- and thats all right, I was just trying to get to the heart of your implications, which are definitely not that clear in your blog. I think you are straddling as long as possible before you come out and tell Christians you think the scriptures are largely inaccurate myths and the fundamentals of what we would call Christian faith(Virgin birth, bodily resurrection of Jesus, his Messiahship) are fables intended to teach other, more universal truths.

Here’s where you’re wrong - you can’t prove you’re right to anyone but yourself. I am comfortable with myself - I just wish other people would stop pushing me to be different. So, when I feel like I’m being pushed, I withdraw. That’s what I started to feel here, and that’s what I did, and now I feel like you’re both pushing me to feel bad about that. And I refuse to do this. I don’t owe you anything, and will not be made to feel like I do.

Your questions, to me, show a lack of nuance. You ask “either/or” questions, where I think that there is more than 2 options. So I try to play at why there might be more than two options. And now you’re accusing me of being evasive. I wonder if anyone ever accused Jesus of such a thing, for telling stories and asking questions instead of clearly defining exactly what he had to say?

Actually, Socrates in philosophy did the same thing. But I am sure the folks who hung around Jesus and Socrates, probably knew where they were coming from “in general - most of the time”. What you are asking is for folks to take a journey through Middle Earth - without a roadmap.

Randy - I have done my best to provide a roadmap. I have done so in a blog that I have spent countless hours on. If you are unwilling to click a link to such a blog, but are willing to spend hours accusing me of being unwilling to provide a roadmap, that is your problem, not mine. All this time spent trying to manipulatively make me feel guilty and trying to force me into a situation where I will have to greatly summarize something I’ve spent a lot of time carefully and meticulously laying out could be time that you are spending reading what I have done.

You and Eaglesway have made me feel like I am not in a safe place to say what I really think. And you’re not helping this situation by continuing down the path you’re on.

That’s the problem. I don’t know what you think. And it might take me hours reading your blog - to figure it out. That’s assuming you are straightforward in the blog, letting us know what you really think. Else, I might as well go reading some established controversial figure - like Jiddu Krishnamurti. I don’t know about Eagles Way or others - I can’t speak for them. But let me leave it this way for me. If you ever get a publisher or self-publish and the book is available on Amazon, I’ll read what the book description and the author bio says. And I’ll read through all the reviews. If I like what I read; there are enough overall favorable ratings and reviews - I’ll order a copy. Or see if my local public library, can obtain me a copy.

However many hours it takes you to read, I can guarantee it took at least twice as many hours to write - at least.

I am pretty straightforward about my views. Sometimes, however, I’m not quite sure what they are. Sometimes I feel like I’ve glimpsed truth that I have no way of putting into words. And sometimes, I feel that in order to understand a conclusion I’ve come to, I’ve got to lay out the road I took to get there, and this takes longer than simply stating “this is my opinion.” So you might not get a direct answer to a question you’d want answered, but you will get direct statements. Demanding that I simply answer your questions will not do - they are your questions, not mine.

Now really, look here: I have given you all I’m willing to give you on this forum at this time. If you’d like to read my blog and then ask questions about what you’ve read, I will try to answer. But in the meantime, I am done. I am serious about this - if the next post is along the lines of the last few, I will simply not answer.

That’s fine. I gave you my final, reasonable proposition also. Get it published and available on Amazon, along with enough reviewers and raters. My friends have done it. If you read through the thread here, I gave you 3 examples of spiritual friends, who have done this. And they are NOT established and great authors, rich people or folks with extensive publishing connections. Really, now. If they can do it and you have something **worthwhile **to share - so can you!

And for these examples of spiritual writings on Amazon, look at:

Mystic Visions: Black Elk’s Great Vision Clarified by Quentin H. Young
The Incredible Life of a Himalayan Yogi: The Times, Teachings and Life of Living Shiva: Baba Lokenath Brahmachari by Shuddhaanandaa Brahmachari
This House Is On Fire: The Life of Shri Dhyanyogi by by Shri Anandi Ma

First you need to be an expert in your field:

And you might get a publisher and/or agent, who might negotiate a contract with you:

And you can spread the word about the book

And you can educate the readers on all the new technology.

Really, I have no intention beyond discussion. I dont get the thing of not feeling “safe” to say what you think but- really, its ok. I just wanted to know where you were at- not to condemn you for it- even th I may not agree with your position, its just a discission to me, but I find it is way too easy to jump too conclusions after a few words from someone. Even if someone says, “Buddha is the real Jesus”, I’m not gonna freak out and get all defensive or anything. Its not like that. I just wanted to know where you were cming from.