The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Ezekiel 18; The Soul Who Sins Will Die

Theology General Theology
#13

The soul that sinneth, it shall die… because the wages of sin is death.

I think where so much misunderstanding is to be had is in what this “death” is that is “the wages of sin”. It seems like it’s always connected to physical death in some as, as if it is the physical grave and some sort of “eternal death” that one needs to be redeemed from.

The natural man is not “going to die” (after a carnal truth) due to his sin; that happens because man IS MORTAL - DYING physically from the very day of his natural birth.

But God said, that in the day that Adam sinned… DYING, he would DIE.

Not only are we already “dying” physically, we are born into a world in which we are subject to “the things of the world” and “the lust of the flesh”, subject to “vanity” and IN THE DAY that a man is “drawn away of his own lusts and enticed” sin is brought forth and “sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death”.

Jam 1:13-15 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

We ARE DEAD (spiritually speaking) WHILE WE LIVE (carnally speaking).

And it takes THE SPIRIT OF GOD (the breath of life seen being breathed into Adam’s nostril in Gen) to make this earthen vessel (DEAD in sin) A LIVING SOUL.

Adam was FIRST FORMED out of the dust of the ground before God ever breathed the breath of life into Him and made him A LIVING SOUL We seem to miss the spiritual significance of this and we miss the “process” by which God IS CREATING man in His image and after His likeness. We overlook the fact that there is a progression that takes place in Genesis from that which is FIRST FORMED, to that which is MADE, to that which is CREATED in His image (and BLESSED).

And man is not “created” in the image and likeness of God ~UNTIL~ God sends forth HIS SPIRIT and RENEWEST the face of the earth.

Psa 104:30 Thou sendest forth thy spirit, they are created: and thou renewest the face of the earth.

The physical grave, filled with physical corpses of rotting flesh, is but A SHADOW (or ‘type’) of “the body of this death” of which Paul spoke and from which men need to be redeemed. It is “full of dead men’s bones”, it’s THROAT is “an open sepulcher” and its TONGUE “a world of iniquity… set on fire of hell”.

And while Adam (the FIRST MAN) was made A LIVING SOUL, the Last Adam was made A QUICKENING SPIRIT and the SECOND MAN (gathered together by one spirit into ONE BODY, with ONE HEAD) ~is~ THE LORD FROM HEAVEN.

It is by being found “in Adam” that all men ARE DEAD and by being found “in Christ” (by being baptized into HIS DEATH, THE SECOND DEATH) that death is destroyed and LIFE AND IMMORTALITY are brought to light. For it is by being raised WITH HIM, who has the keys of death and of hell (by knowing the power of HIS RESURRECTION) that we overcome the world… death and sin.

It is THIS MORTAL that must “put on” immortality and it not about being UNCLOTHED (taking off this earthly tabernacle) but about being CLOTHED UPON. And having been clothed we will not be found naked. That life that IS HID within us is just waiting to be MADE MANIFEST and when He who is our life is made manifest WE SHALL APPEAR WITH HIM in glory (Christ in you, THE HOPE OF GLORY).

1Th 4:13-18 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and THE DEAD IN CHRIST SHALL RISE FIRST: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

As I see it, Paul is not talking here about the dead corpses of believers in physical graves.

Those “who sleep”, those who are “dead in Christ”, are among THOSE WHO REMAIN and it is “the dead” (THE TARES) who shall rise first when Christ comes to gather ALL THOSE WHO REMAIN, both “the living” and “the dead” as He is LORD AND SAVIOR of both.

Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together FIRST THE TARES, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

We can’t seem to reconcile the fact that THE TARES ARE GATHERED FIRST with BLESSED AND HOLY IS HE THAT HATH PART IN THE FIRST RESURRECTION… because we fail to see that NONE ARE RIGHTEOUS apart from HIM and HE ~IS~ THE RESURRECTION.

Hope that makes sense and sorry it’s so long. :blush:

#14

Jason.

We are perfect, sinless, holy and righteous in our reborn spirits. ( Eph 4:25) That is where God looks at us, in our perfect spirits.

#15

Amen!

But I take it (from what I have read so far, unless I am misunderstanding?) that you do not believe that God has (or will) quicken/save the spirits of all men? that we are ALL “members one of another”?

#16

athisfeet.

Of course not. Jesus did not teach everyone will be saved…in fact he preached the opposite. Matt 7:13-14; Jn 3:19 etc.

#17

Not all have eternal life. Many (even most) die in their sins, never knowing God and Jesus Christ whom He sent. True!

That doesn’t negate the fact that all men have been reconciled to God through Jesus Christ.

#18

athisfeet.

you said: That doesn’t negate the fact that all men have been reconciled to God through Jesus Christ.

Aaron37: God has reconciled all men to himself through Jesus Christ… meaning there is no longer enmity between man and God. Sin separated man from God. Not anymore. The wrath of God due to men was laid upon Jesus. We are forgiven for are sins because Jesus was judged for them. That is grace. God has done his part. Now Man must accept this free gift of grace to apply it to thier life.

#19

How can something be “free” when there are strings attached? Nowhere does the word of God say that one must “accept” salvation in order to be saved, yet almost the entire Christian world parrots this claim, adding to the word of God. From where does it come? This makes Christ only the POTENTIAL Savior of the world. It’s like saying that God just throws us a life-raft and leaves it up to us to have the strength, will, desire, ability to grab it. Did God stand on the sidelines (remain on the boat or the shore) and just throw us a life-preserver? Or did He jump into the water (with us) and drag us back to safety (kicking and screaming if necessary)?

Christ is not our “potential” Savior, He is THE SAVIOR OF THE WORLD. He is our savior because He saved us; you cannot be the savior of something not saved. We might not believe it, but our lack of faith does not make void the word or the will of God. Christ remains faithful, He cannot deny Himself (1 Tim 2:13) We are HIS BODY!!

Neither did God pour out His wrath on Christ “instead of” us, if that is what you are saying?

Christ is not a “substitute” for us. Christ paid the penalty for sin so that we, through him, might be saved OUT OF sin and death. He didn’t ‘take our place’, HE JOINED US where we are… that we might join Him where He is! And just as ALL “died in Adam” so shall ALL be “made alive in Christ”… every man IN HIS OWN ORDER… a truth to be made manifest IN DUE TIME.

In the meantime, we are to know NO MAN according to the flesh, as we are ALL children of the Most High God!! ONE NEW MAN created IN CHRIST.

#20

athisfeet.

you said : How can something be “free” when there are strings attached? Nowhere does the word of God say that one must “accept” salvation in order to be saved, yet almost the entire Christian world parrots this claim, adding to the word of God. From where does it come.

Aaron37:No strings attached. Free, meaning you can’t purchase it, but with any gift you must recieve it in order to make it yours. Biblical faith is responding to God’s grace with faith in order to recieve it. The reason you struggle with this is because you are out of balance when it comes to grace and faith. Grace alone will not save you…in fact it will kill you. Faith alone will not save you…it will also kill you…It takes the balance of grace and faith to be saved…

#21

No I am not “out of balance”. I already addressed faith and grace, didn’t I? I even agreed with you that both are required; both of which come from God through Christ. It is by the grace OF GOD and the faith OF CHRIST that we are saved. Your faith IS NOT YOUR OWN, but THE GIFT OF GOD. It’s author and finisher IS CHRIST!

A carnal man CANNOT “believe” or “receive” anything from God, Aaron. You admit this yourself and then you turn around and INSIST that men DO what you admit they CAN’T? Why?

Salvation is OF THE LORD!!

Jesus told His disciples that they had NOT chosen Him, but that HE CHOSE THEM. Even Paul says to the Thessalonians:

“But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:”

Concerning the wicked He had just said:

“And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.”

GOD HAD ALREADY CHOSEN “from the beginning” those who would be saved and believe the truth? And to the wicked, GOD SENDS “strong delusion that they should believe a lie”? And you think that salvation is up to us? Up to men who are by their very nature INCAPABLE of seeing and believing the truth?

I think that what is “out of balance” here is an ability to “rightly divide” the word of truth, at least part of which means dividing between the flesh and the spirit, the natural man and the spiritual man, the first man and the second man, the outward man and the inward man… the creature and the Creator.

#22

athisfeet.

God does not choose anyone for salvation. Is man capable of hearing the word of God? If so, then they are capable of recieving or resisting the God given faith it takes to believe in Jesus.

#23

There are many passages of scripture, not just the one I quoted, that say that it is GOD who does the choosing and calling.

No, he’s NOT! He’s not only lame, blind and deaf… he is DEAD and THE DEAD “know” and can “do” NOTHING.

And, if not?

You, yourself, talk about how “destitute” man is and yet you keep trying to insist that man CAN DO what you have already said yourself that he “can’t”. You don’t see the contradiction?

#24

athisfeet.

Man is capable to physically hear the word of God. If they are physically capable of hearing the word of God…they are capable of recieving or resisting the gift of faith to believe. You have a false view of God’s soverignty, my friend.

#25

I think that it is you who has a false view of what it means to be DEAD.

#26

By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive.

It is not about what the natural man can “see” or “hear” (after a carnal truth) because he cannot “see” or “hear” the things of God. He CANNOT!!

When it comes to the things of God, he is DEAD.

#27

athisfeet.

Lydia, in Acts 16:14 was not born again before she heard Paul preach the gospel. In fact, Lydia was a worshiper of God before she was born again or made spiritually alive. Notice how God’s grace works with Lydia’s faith. 1) She worshipped God.( responding to the light given her about God) 2) She “LISTENED” to Paul preaching the gospel.( which you said was impossible for man because they are dead) God did not open Lydia’s heart to listen, she “gave heed” or “listened” by her own choice and then God opened her heart to recieve or resist the truth given her) 3) God opened her heart to allow her to make a decision of what she was hearing. 4) she believed and was born again and baptized. This is a perfect example of how the gift of faith to believe in Jesus can be received or resisted.

#28

A37,

Many of those who lived in the days of Christ “listened” to him preach too. But when His disciples asked Him why he spoke in parables he said: “Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.”

Simply “listening” does not bring “understanding”. Understanding comes only from God as it is only the spirit of God that CAN know/understand “the things of God”. So, as I see it, “resisting” would be merely a matter NOT BEING GIVEN an “understanding”.

#29

athisfeet.

you said: Many of those who lived in the days of Christ “listened” to him preach too. But when His disciples asked Him why he spoke in parables he said: “Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.”

Aaron37: Parables were a common form of teaching in Judaism. Before a certain point in His ministry, Jesus had employed many graphic analogies using common things that would be familiar to everyone (salt, bread, sheep, etc.) and their meaning was fairly clear in the context of His teaching. Parables required more explanation, and at one point in His ministry, Jesus began to teach using parables exclusively.

The question is why Jesus would let most people wonder about the meaning of His parables. The first instance of this is in His telling the parable of the seed and the soils. Before He interpreted this parable, He drew His disciples away from the crowd. They said to Him, “Why do You speak to them in parables?” Jesus answered them, "To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted. For whoever has, to him more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has shall be taken away from him. Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. In their case the prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled, which says,

‘Hearing you will hear and shall not understand, And seeing you will see and not perceive; For the hearts of this people have grown dull. Their ears are hard of hearing, And their eyes they have closed, Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, So that I should heal them.’ But blessed are your eyes, because they see; and your ears, because they hear. For truly I say to you that many prophets and righteous men desired to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it" (Matthew 13:10-17).

From this point on in Jesus’ ministry, when He spoke in parables, He explained them only to His disciples. But those who had continually rejected His message were left in their spiritual blindness to wonder as to His meaning. He made a clear distinction between those who had been given “ears to hear” and those who persisted in unbelief—ever hearing, but never actually perceiving and “always learning but never able to acknowledge the truth” (2 Timothy 3:7). The disciples had been given the gift of spiritual discernment by which things of the spirit were made clear to them. Because they accepted truth from Jesus, they were given more and more truth. The same is true today of believers who have been given the gift of the Holy Spirit who guides us into all truth (John 16:13). He has opened our eyes to the light of truth and our ears to the sweet words of eternal life.

Our Lord Jesus understood that truth is not sweet music to all ears. Simply put, there are those who have neither interest nor regard in the deep things of God. So why, then, did He speak in parables? To those with a genuine hunger for God, the parable is both an effective and memorable vehicle for the conveyance of divine truths. Our Lord’s parables contain great volumes of truth in very few words—and His parables, rich in imagery, are not easily forgotten. So, then, the parable is a blessing to those with willing ears. But to those with dull hearts and ears that are slow to hear, the parable is also an instrument of both judgment and mercy.

you said: Simply “listening” does not bring “understanding”. Understanding comes only from God as it is only the spirit of God that CAN know/understand “the things of God”. So, as I see it, “resisting” would be merely a matter NOT BEING GIVEN an “understanding”.

Aaron37: Again, your understanding of God’s sovereignty is flawed. Notice the sequence of how Lydia was saved. 1) She was a worshiper, but not born again ( she responded positively to the light given to her about God) 2) Lydia herself chose to give heed or listen to Paul preach the word of God. 3) God opened Lydia’s heart to allow her to believe and receive or doubt and do without the gift of faith to believe on Jesus. 4) Lydia chose to believe and receive the truth (Jesus) and was born again and baptized. God is no respector of persons. He does not give the ability to believe to one person and with hold it from another. God gives equal opportunity to everyone who responds positvely to the light they have been given of Him.

#30

Aaron37, I believe that it is your understanding of THE GOOD NEWS that is flawed if you believe that the gospel message “is not sweet music to all ears” (at least to those who can hear it). The cry is for mankind to be reconciled to God, for God was in Christ reconciling THE WORLD unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them. He took away the sins OF THE WORLD, Aaron. Did he not? Paul said that Christ was not a propitiation for our sins only, but for the sins of THE WHOLE WORLD.

The difference between those who believe and those who don’t is that those who believe LIVE, they HAVE ETERNAL LIFE. They have life AND HAVE IT MORE ABUNDANTLY, while those who do not believe are “perishing”. However, it is exactly THEY (the LOST) who Christ came TO SEEK AND TO SAVE. No?

Those who believe are already walking in their salvation, they “know God and Jesus Christ whom He sent”. Those who do not are “asleep” (dead in sin) and walking in darkness, not YET having passed from death unto LIFE, from the darkness into THE LIGHT, from the night into THE DAY of the Lord. Surely you believe that people can and do “pass” from one to the other, right? That someone who is “an unbeliever” today can be “a believer” tomorrow? Not all men have eternal life, as not all men know God. But that doesn’t mean that they have not been reconciled to God by the blood of Jesus Christ shed on the cross. They just don’t “know” it yet and therefore they are not walking in it yet.

Mat 7:13-14 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Very few go in through the narrow gate that leads to LIFE, many go in through the wide gate that leads to destruction; but do they not all ENTER IN? And what is “destroyed”? The man or his dead works?

#31

athisfeet.

you said: They just don’t “know” it yet and therefore they are not walking in it yet.

Mat 7:13-14 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Very few go in through the narrow gate that leads to LIFE, many go in through the wide gate that leads to destruction; but do they not all ENTER IN? And what is “destroyed”? The man or his dead works?atHisfeet

Aaron37: In order for them to “know” it and walk in it (as you put it) they must believe and receive it, yes? So, the question you have not answered… what happens to the people who die spirtually dead( the people who reject knowing it and walking in it)? Where do the lost go when they die? Not everyone dies believers. How do the people become spiritually alive after they die spiritually dead?

#32

All go to be with the Lord, Aaron; as Jesus Christ is Lord BOTH of the living and the dead.