TV. That was delicious. And I applaud you, even if I don’t agree with everything you state. Well written and as long as it was, wonderful to read.
I agree with you regarding labels, I simply don’t know of better words. I don’t know what else to use but am open to any suggestion (external vs. internal, symbolic vs literal, spiritual vs natural - whatever works). Legalistic comes to mind because if I say murder, adultery and idol worship are not moral and not for today and that God is ok with us lying, murdering, and worshiping other gods, can I be a Christian? The sabbath along with secondary commands carried some hefty punishements. So if it’s true that Sabbath is part of the 10 supreme commands, and one does not obey such a command nor teach that it is, is this a minor or a major violation? Even if stoning is not observed by a sabbath keeper, what about being a Christian who rejects resting on the sabbath as being moral even after his brothers tells him it is. I need you to answer that. If you say it’s not a major violation (like murdering your neighbor - see corpslight’s comment on lying vs. murder) you’ll have to explain why it’s presence in the supreme commands is weak compared to the others.
I’ll say that I can respect your appeal to mystery of the morality. But respecting it and accepting it are two different things. I’m still not convinced that resting on Saturdays is moral. When someone can spell out how it works, well I’m all ears. I can clearly see that not killing my neighbor is a good thing. But I don’t see anything at all about resting on Saturdays. It’s true I don’t defend a Sunday sabbath, but only because I defend a constant sabbath - even while we’re working.
What I really think your right about, which Bob and I have been inquiring on, is this line that people (including us) draw as to what commandments make it in and which one’s dont. I think you agree. This is perhaps the primary difference as to why we all come to our different views. So I think everyone needs to draw out why we accept some laws and why not others (A hefty task indeed, you’re right about that).
I also agree that eating pork and sabbath observance should not be conflated. I’m not trying to compare the two as being equally moral. I only mean to show that some people may observe that indeed eating pork is unclean for us. This is why “literal” comes to mind. For God’s exact words are “it is unclean for you” and requires cleansing. I see no reason why “literal” is not an important word. It might not be for the sabbath but I’m trying to make sense of legal ramifications and parameters that surround us all. So if it’s possible (and I think logically it is) that pork was a symbol then could it be that Sabbath was even if it is amongst the 10? I think it’s logically possible.
Here’s a reservation I have with God commanding us to keep something holy and being ambiguous. It seems backwards to me to command a supreme command (top 10) and make it so it’s hard to reason why? Now I do see some moral implication that Bob has expressed on the other thread and I’m good with that. But it sort of demolishes the literal holding of resting on Saturdays (but nevermind that). I guess I just don’t resonate with saying this command is top 10 and it’s also unexplainable why.
I never thought of Jesus as “minimizing” his obeservances of the law. Bob and I have argued he revolutionized it because we didn’t get it - and we’re arguing we still don’t in many ways. See my commend on lying to Nazis to save jews.
No I agree, Jesus didn’t come to extinct it or eradicate the sabbath. Again I think you think we’re pushing antinomianism; we’re not. My belief is Jesus shows us that the sabbath (HE) is for man. That Jesus brings us rest (noah) and reconciles us back to the place of rest (Eden) away from the sweating of the brow from ground with thorns and thistles. So I believe Jesus fulfills it by BEING IT.
I agree- there’s nothing wrong with observing the sabbath “literally”. But I also agree there’s nothing wrong with observing it “spiritually” and working on Saturday’s (as unto the Lord) for good work is permissible on the sabbath.
I love it that you see the sabbath as a part of UR - I hope to learn from you. Don’t think I’m poopooing your views. Again the most major concern is making sense of avoiding legalism (much how I look at libertarian free will and seeing it attached to arrogance). I’m not saying you or Kelly or anyone is legalistic (though you might be). I’m saying perhaps you are and you just don’t know it. And I think it’s good for us as EU to learn this to be better prepared for who ever we meet to share the gospel. I have a friend from high school very much like Kelly. He thinks I’m crazy for U. So it’s good for me to rough it out here amongst those who can handle it. I hope you understand that.
Blessings to you as well TV, and wonderfully written. I wish I could write as good as you.
My problem with God dealing with people in different ways is Anninias and Saphira - what gives with that? LOL! People often say “Well the God of the OT was violent” to which I reply “So is the God of the NT!”
Aug