The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Gay Rights (Theologically Speaking)

Kelly :slight_smile: yes the mover was meant in humor. But the argument I make stands: ANY work is not “vocational” work. If your argument is true that the gift of the sabbath was to rest one day out of the week from your vocational work then I would argue that the Pharisees had a better idea than God - TOTAL REST on the sabbath.

Perhaps you simply misunderstood the point but I’ll make it one last time: You say the Disciples were raised under the tradition of the elders (Pharisees) and that is why they were perplexed at Jesus’ parable that eating torah approved foods did not contaminate the food and defile the person. I don’t buy this because they were already eating their food with unwashed hands. So what perplexed them was exactly what Mark said - ALL FOODS. Now was gentile food “food”. Yes it’s uncelan food. One would have to argue from silence that Jesus MADE them eat with unwashed hands. What we DO KNOW is that they were eating with unwashed hands.

I find it hard to believe you really believe that the kingdom of God is about meat; wild. But to each their own. If you don’t want to eat bacon, have at it. I say go for it. But as for telling people they’re disobeying God because they eat pork, that’s a legalistic approach to righteousness which makes no sense to me.

That is why earlier I asked you if eating pork is immoral. If it’s breaking God’s command to eat bacon then one is unrighteouss for eating meat. And if one is unrighteouss for eating a particular meat, then Paul was wrong when he says that God’s kingdom is not about meat. I too don’t buy the legalistic view.

Circumcision is nothing? Or is it?

Lastly, you always seem to argue that the provision of the sabbath means they weren’t breaking the rules. Yet Jesus says “The preist desecrates the day”. If there are provision for a law, then when those provision are met, the law is not desecrated. So do you think Jesus (like Bob and I) was an antagonist to them by using the phrase “desecrates the day”? What do you think he meant by it? I mentioned my interpretation - I desecrate the day and yet am blameless - do you agree?

No one ever said that eating pork takes away your salvation or that we have to not eat it to be saved. It was always about believing and doing right by faith. Even in the OT. (Rom. 4:2) And you are right, circumcision is of the heart only. Not through works. (Deu 30:6; Romans 2:29)

The Priests desecrated the day to do what God says. For an example, they worked in the temple to offer sacrifices, heal people or do other things commanded (John 7:21-24). They didn’t just ignore the Sabbath so they could do what they want. In all the examples of anyone desecrating the Sabbath and being blameless we never see them “going their own way”. Only doing the work of God.

This shows that keeping the commandments is at least somewhat important to God. Of course, now we don’t have to keep them for salvation (because that would be legalistic) but, if such a big point is made through the whole Bible about God blessing us if we keep it, why do we hate it so much and think it’s so terrible?

Ok, that was funny! :laughing:
You see the problem is, contrary to popular belief, we can’t just make up definitions for words and say “That is, or I have, a better definition than God gives so, I’m going with that.”. That was the sin of the pharisees and why Jesus was so harsh with them. I think the Bible still speaks to that today.

Might want to read Matt 15:1-20 for a cross reference. He calls the pharisees blind guides leading the blind because of THEIR rules and because they DO NOT follow Torah. He calls them hypocrites and says they honor Him with their lips but, their hearts are far from Him. Their rules were vanity.

I did not say the “kingdom of God is about meat”. I said if we are redeemed we should want to obey His commandments. What do you think “COMES OUT OF A MAN” when he doesn’t keep the commandments? Yeah, sin. Maybe that is what Jesus was saying, huh?
For me, it’s more of just sticking to the scripture in this conversation than a legalistic approach and “telling people they are disobeying God”.

Legalism is making up rules that aren’t God’s and following them as if they are, like the pharisees did. It is not “legalistic” to obey God’s commands after He has freely given His life to redeem you.
Play religion and make up your own rules if you wish, I will obey God because He has given me life. The world knows the hypocrisy of the church and loathes it. Many search for the God of the Bible who can save and help them change their dismal lives and you go ahead and tell them what God has said for thousands of years is not a good way to live.

Do not suppose that I came to throw down the law or the prophets--I did not come to throw down, but to fulfil; for, verily I say to you, till that the heaven and the earth may pass away, one iota or one tittle may not pass away from the law, till that all may come to pass.Whoever therefore may loose one of these commands–the least–and may teach men so, least he shall be called in the reign of the heavens, but whoever may do and may teach them , he shall be called great in the reign of the heavens. `For I say to you, that if your righteousness may not abound above that of the scribes and Pharisees, ye may not enter to the reign of the heavens.(Mat 5:17-20)

Obeying God is not legalism. Obeying the dictates of your own mind is.

Who was circumcised of the first century church? Like every other commandment, God wants our hearts. If you are circumcised and you think that will save you, you’re wrong. If your heart is circumcised and you are true to God then your outward circumcision is a sign of that. Same for baptism.

The priests were specifically commanded by God to do His works on the Sabbath and were without sin. There is nowhere in the Bible that God says He took away the commandments.
If Jesus is our sabbath, why should that not be a sign for us, as the sabbath has always been? The Sabbath goes back to Creation. It was part of what God’s people understood BEFORE the written Torah was given. It was given from the dawning of the world. It should be important to us.

Kelly and Evil,
You both failed to answer why Jesus used the word “desecrate” except to mention the pharisees did. I asked specifically if you agree with my interpretation of Jesus’ words - I DESECRATE THE DAY AND YET AM BLAMELESS. I take it your answer is No he did not desecrate the day for to disobey any commandment is sin.

des·e·crate /ˈdɛsɪˌkreɪt/ Show Spelled[des-i-kreyt] Show IPAverb (used with object), -crat·ed, -crat·ing.
1.to divest of sacred or hallowed character or office.
2.to divert from a sacred to a profane use or purpose.
3.to treat with sacrilege; profane.

So Jesus is saying - The preist treats with sacrilege the sabbath and yet is blameless.

But moving along without beating a dead horse; I’m not arguing that Jesus disapproved of the Pharisees interpretations - that’s an axiom. What’s really being discussed is what made the pharisees think that NO WORK AT ALL could be conducted on the sabbath. Obviously without trying to beat around the bush, we see each other as carrying the interpretation of the pharisees. No doubt, that’s what we all do - we see the other party as wrong. So I think we all get it that you believe in your heart that you’re obeying God’s commands. I don’t question that at all. I simply question your interpretation of what God’s commands are. I see the law as obeying justice and mercy - NOTHING MORE. I don’t see pork as having anything to do with justice or with mercy. Anyone who loves justice and mercy and eats cat is ok with me for God’s kingdom is not about meat. However if eating cat offends you and causes you to stumble I’ll refrain. I myself don’t really have an appetite for cat. But I know people who do.

I don’t believe eating pork was ever a sin any more than David’s men could not eat the shewbread. If it goes into the stomach and is destroyed there then it cannot defile you and I take full confidence that pork can be chewed and digested and pooped just like beef.

As for the parasites, God should have taken a few cooking classes and learned how to cook the meat properly (yes more humor). But on a serious note God should have understood that swordfish is not bad for you. And anything in moderation is permissible. If pigs are fed properly and raised in a clean enviroment, is it lawful to eat? LOL.

For me it’s not hard to see why the Pharisees had the additions - A man collects wood on the sabbath, God says he must die. He must have been a lumberjack :slight_smile: Seriously - he died becasue the law over and over states YOU SHALL NOT DO ANY KIND OF WORK. If God meant provisional work, he sure made it unclear because all we see through the history is people not collecting manna - when that could have been a good thing - or people dying for collecting wood.

And tell me when the scripture states - do not light a fire - who’s vocation was that?

Sorry, it’s obvious to me that people don’t sympathize with the pharisees enough. God’s law was a burden for the jews and there’s just no other way for me to see it.

Another thought. Kelly you support that it is proper to tell Nazi’s, while hiding jews in your home, that you’re not hiding jews is not a lie, I would challenge you on that.

Bearing false witness to you neighbor is lying. (and your enemies are neighbors).

I would say lie to the Nazis (break the command) in order to support mercy (hiding the jews) and when we do, we desecrate the law and yet are blameless. In truth I would argue we are doing God’s will and therefore are not true law breakers.

But you seem to play both sides of the fence. On the scenario mentioned above you seem to insert your own interpretation on what it means to bear false witness to a neighbor. I have no issue with using liberal interpretations, but you seem to want literal interpretations when needed - that to me is what the pharisees did. They didn’t know what constitutes work exactly and God wasn’t exactly spelling it out for them. If God meant vocational work, he should have said so.

The literal interpretation is exactly what they followed. In the context God says “DO ALL THY WORK” which is beyond vocational. It means ANY work you have including your vocational shall be done before the sabbath.

If you can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that the work God commanded us to refrain from is vocation, I’d appreciate it if you did. But the passages I’ve read all seem clear to me to say - any work you’re going to do during the week do before the sabbath - for on that day you shall rest ENTIRELY. For the rest in Jesus is COMPLETE and not partial.

That’s probably why you are having a hard time hearing what I’m saying but, I respect your decision not to listen and your choice to end the conversation.
Blessings.

O the happiness of those perfect in the way, They are walking in the law of Jehovah, O the happiness of those keeping His testimonies, With the whole heart they seek Him. (Psa 119:1-2)
And meet me doth Thy kindness, O Jehovah, Thy salvation according to Thy saying. And I answer him who is reproaching me a word, For I have trusted in Thy word.
And Thou takest not utterly away From my mouth the word of truth, Because for Thy judgment I have hoped. And I keep Thy law continually, To the age and for ever.
And I walk habitually in a broad place, For Thy precepts I have sought. And I speak of Thy testimonies before kings, And I am not ashamed. And I delight myself in Thy commands, That I have loved, And I lift up my hands unto Thy commands, That I have loved, And I do meditate on Thy statutes! (Psa 119:41-48)
Good Thou didst with Thy servant, O Jehovah, According to Thy word. The goodness of reason and knowledge teach me, For in Thy commands I have believed.(Psa 119:65-66)
Thy righteousness is righteousness to the age, And Thy law is truth. (Psa 119:142)
The sum of Thy word is truth, And to the age is every judgment of Thy righteousness!(Psa 119:160)

to the age. the age ended when Jesus died on the cross. when a change of priesthood occurs a change in the law comes with it. just as an age ends when Noah steps out of the ark and new laws are given

That’s interesting considering . . . . .
And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all? And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these. And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he: And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices. And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly, he said unto him, Thou art not far from the kingdom of God. And no man after that durst ask him any question.
(Mar 12:28-34)

And . . .
And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. (Mat 19:16-17)

And . . .
Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
(Rom 3:31)

Kelly, I’m listening I just don’t agree. I think you’re listening you just don’t agree.

In acts 15 men come to the apostles regarding the issue of the gentiles must follow the law of Moses. Peter responds by saying this yoke (the law) was one which their fathers could not carry and that they themselves were saved by grace. Do you not see the connection from our vantage point?

I’m sorry if I implied I was ending the conversation. Truth be told I’ve enjoyed talking to you and Evil. If I offended you with the humor of movers and the pharisees having better ideas then God, well I didn’t mean to offend. I only meant to make points (while using silly and extreme example) in order to show the reasons you gave make no sense to me.

Blessings to you as well.

What are we going to do with this Mag? Much of christianity has already excluded the “ot”. Now we must exclude Psalms and Proverbs from our reading. Then get rid of the references to keeping the commandments in the “nt”. If we keep excluding the Ot scriptures from our belief system we won’t even be able to believe the nt anymore because it is rooted deeply in the Ot. It seems that is where many are, that don’t even believe the Bible is truth. Without it people make up their own god (usually themselves, their own ideas, etc). This is idolatry. If I am in error, I’d rather it was by responding to salvation by “overdoing” God’s Word.

If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
(Joh 14:7)
If ye love me, keep my commandments.
(Joh 14:15)
He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
(Joh 14:21)

love God, love others…Thou art not far from the kingdom of God. Notice He didn’t say and make sure you keep all 611 other laws.

those are the laws of the kingdom, the kingdom of God is within us. The mosaic laws were given for the natural. They were given for the literal land of canaan, they had temporal blessings associated with them. If you______ then ______. They were a shadow. The truth has come. All those things were given for our example, on whom the end of the age has come

In romans when he says we establish the law, he just got done saying what the purpose of the law is, to declare sin,
Rom 3:21
But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;

Gal 3: 10 For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, “CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO DOES NOT ABIDE BY ALL THINGS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW, TO PERFORM THEM.” 11Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, “THE RIGHTEOUS MAN SHALL LIVE BY FAITH.” 12However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, “HE WHO PRACTICES THEM SHALL LIVE BY THEM.” 13Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us—for it is written, “CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO HANGS ON A TREE”— 14in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
(Matt 22:40 “On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.” Love God vertical pole, Love neighbor horizontal pole)

  19Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions, having been ordained through angels by the agency of a mediator, until the seed would come to whom the promise had been made. 20Now a mediator is not for one party only; whereas God is only one. 21Is the Law then contrary to the promises of God? May it never be! For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law. 22But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

  23But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. 24Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. 25But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. 26For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendants, heirs according to promise.

The purpose of the law was to act as a tutor to point the way to Christ. Now that He has come we no longer need to be pointed.

Yes, I understand your position. Do you understand that I know SALVATION does not come by keeping the law? The Gentiles are saved by grace alone. A sect of the pharisees that taught that the law MUST be kept to obtain salvation were demanding the gentiles keep the law for salvation. The Jerusalem Council rejected that because salvation by keeping the law is a yoke too hard to bear. But, they then gave them some of the law in vs 20 (so they would not make it hard for them because they were just turning to God). The council then goes on in vs 21 to say that they can learn the law a little at a time (without it being too hard to bear right now) by going to the synagogues every Sabbath. So yes, I do see what you are saying and I agree with it but, I think you stop short of understanding all that is being said in the wider context.

I have, at times, enjoyed our conversation. I have felt a bit backed into a corner at times. That’s when I usually come out swinging. I’m not a theologian by a long shot. At times it felt like the inquisition. Your humor is funny. The extremes kind of made a mockery of and misrepresented what I was saying. I wasn’t sure if you were joking or not sometimes which was awkward. Not offensive but, at times irritating. Probably if we knew each other I would have been busting up.

Just for clarification, You can not be saved by keeping the law of God no matter how hard you try.
That being said, you are still standing here on earth in the flesh. If you steal or kill or break the commandments and say you are a christian, you look a whole lot like a hypocrite too. The law is good and holy, righteous and perfect. It does not work for salvation because YOU are not perfect and you can’t keep it perfectly to obtain justification. It does declare sin - your sin. Murder is still a sin even if your saved by grace. Would you agree?

How do you know God the Father? What does He look like? What are His attributes? He is perfect, good, righteous, holy. The Torah is His perfect image. Jesus fulfilled the Torah. He is God and He was perfect. We see the Father in Him. We can not obtain perfect through the letter of the law. That’s why Jesus died. Salvation is by grace alone. But, doesn’t His Spirit in us teach us about Him? And He and the Father are One. Is doing, in union with the Spirit of God, what God calls holy and perfect a right way to go? After we have been redeemed by grace? Shouldn’t that righteousness BE the fruit we bear if we indeed house the Holy Spirit? Again, I’m not arguing that we can in any way keep the law to gain salvation, I’m talking about the way we live and what we look like to others. I’m talking about being a witness.

Have you taken a look at the amount of divorces in the church? Pornography? Child abuse? Adultery? I’d say we need to be pointed still.

Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. **On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. **
(Mat 22:37-40)

Does all mean all?

Kelly, well I’ve def enjoyed this thread and w/o you there’d be nothing new to explore. I don’t believe Bob or I have ever meant to back you into corner or make you feel inadequate. It’s only a discussion and I haven’t preceived you as judging me or anyone else. Yes I see judgement inherent in your view (that is pig eaters are sinners) but I never got that from you or shepherd - in other words you’ve not been judgemental to me.

I get it that you’re not preaching salvation by works. But I’m wondering if you can see how fine the line is for those who did (back in Jesus’ time). I have strong doubts the Sanhedrin argued that they were saved by not eating pork. Rather I’ll bet anything that they argued just as many do today - my obedience via my faith is what saves me. Jews were all about faith, but they didn’t realize they were legalistic in their faith. They believed that via obediece to rules their faith showed their righteouss character.

I don’t think anyone here disagrees with you on obedience. Like I said, it’s an axiom (we all agree). What’s being disagreed on is how to intepret law and dispensations (as Magma is doing).

I’ve already shows that Jesus was (via subtext) telling the Pharisees that he desecrated the sabbath and yet was blameless. I also stated how you yourself begin fudging numbers when it comes to telling nazis your hiding jews or not. I would say you totally lie to them (according to literal interpretation) and yet are blameless (did not sin). I see Jesus this way. The reason is because of how I interpret deceit (to lie or bear false witness). But who am I or who are you to make such calls?

Regarding Acts 15, yes I see James stated that they be kept from eating blood or things sacrificed to idols, yet we KNOW what Paul said about that. In other words, they were simply doing they’re best to control a situation. On one hand they knew the law was a dead end (in legalistic terms) yet I agree with you never would they say the law was bad - it’s a semantical issue - what do we mean by “law”.

You stated to Magma: “If I am in error, I’d rather it was by responding to salvation by “overdoing” God’s Word.”
This is exactly what I think the Rabbi’s did of Jesus’ time and before - For if a man collecting wood warrants death, then they have to know - WHAT CONSTITUTES WORK. If eating pork angers God, then what if there’s animal poop on your hands - you better wash em. This is why they didn’t tell Jesus his disciples were breaking the law. Instead they declared they don’t follow the tradition. But there were more severe matters (which warranted death) like the sabbath. So if God says “Don’t light a fire” then I doubt anyone was ligghint fires on the sabbath. If God says don’t bake your goods, I doubt you’d find the men doing it and then saying “My wifes the cook so I can do it”. It would take ALOT to move mose of Catholocism or Protestants from the traditional position (and rightly so). The Pharisees, as I see it, were in agreement with you - I’d rather be in error by adding to the law and making sure I meet the minimum requirements then disobey the commands by carrying my mat home. Yet you judge them for adding to the word of God. Basically I hear you saying you’ll add to it too in order to meet the minimum requirements. So again you make no sense to me.

Again, no one here is saying Jesus was sinning. But we are questioning what does “law” mean and how do we interpret the law. You’re happy to add to it yet you seem unhappy to add to it (as the pharisees did).

Aug

In case I didn’t say it right, withholding information from an evil man is not a sin , bearing false witness AGAINST your neighbor is . . .
Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor. (Exo 20:16)
Not “to” your neighbor. Bearing false witness AGAINST your neighbor is declaring they have broken a commandment and are eligible (if you will) for judgment. In this case the Jew had not committed a crime or sin against God or his neighbor. It would not be bearing false witness AGAINST my neighbor to withhold information from the Nazi about the hidden Jew.

God also commands us to protect the innocent neighbor. In this case, the Jew . . .
Keep thee far from a false matter; and the innocent and righteous slay thou not: for I will not justify the wicked. (Exo 23:7)
Nazi = evil. Jew = innocent. To hand an innocent person over to an evil person would be a sin.

It isn’t breaking a commandment as I’ve shown above. On the contrary, it would be breaking a commandment to turn the Jew in.

I think I’ve shown from the Bible that my interpretation is stable. It seems that you are thinking in the “letter” of the law and you believe it harsh but, in reality it is just. It shows that God is on the side of those who seek to obey or “do” His will. There are weighty matters of the law. Justice, mercy and faith. We should do these without leaving the rest undone.
Vocational? It was the Israelite’s “vocation” to gather manna, gather firewood, cook manna, take care of livestock, move when God moved. There weren’t postmen and landscapers. God didn’t want them doing “everyday” work. He didn’t want them to “go their own way”. He didn’t want them to neglect the weighty matters of the law. All those who came before Christ kept the law by faith.

That’s how I do it.

I think we need to agree that the only work the Israelite’s had was what they did all the time. They didn’t put in 8 hours at the local pizza joint or anything. They gathered their manna and firewood, took care of livestock, etc. That was their work. So that is what God is saying to refrain from. I would say our rest in Jesus is not complete until we cross the finish line. We are entering that rest now but, we will come into it fully after we have finished the work God has given us to complete on this earth, in our lifetime.
There were provisions for people to break the sabbath and be without blame. Such as, if the 8th day came on the Sabbath it was allowable to circumcise on it and be blameless. It isn’t really a big issue that Jesus, David or the priests broke the sabbath and were blameless. There are times and situations allowable by God to do something on the Sabbath. The main things are, overall do not go your own way and do not work. Just rest. It’s not really that hard and it’s not a burden. If you are keeping Torah, you know what and when things are required that would normally be considered breaking Sabbath laws.

Hopefully, my last post can clear up some of your concerns. I did not judge the pharisees as adding to the law. It was Jesus who said it but, I am in agreement with Him. I have not “added to” the law. My comment of “overdoing” was just saying, I’d rather obey Him in what He says is right than just say I’m saved and sin against Him or someone else because I am “free from the law”.
Also, we speak past each other because we have totally different presuppositions of the pharisees.
I am not trying to move Catholics or Protestants. I’m not into big shot ministry. I’m just a middle aged, uneducated housewife.
I find you “restate” my comments in a way opposite of what I am saying. I’m not sure why but, perhaps in my inability to relay my position clearly, you find it hard to understand what I am saying? This law/salvation by grace issue is the confusion people had in what Paul was saying. He struggles to relay the importance of obedience to Torah but, not for salvation.

The rest of the commandments hang on those two, just as Jesus hung on a tree. The other things that hang(G2910)
the other two that were crucified with Jesus
A millstone around someones neck
a serpent on Pauls arm :frowning:carnality) for the mind set on flesh is death, but the mind set on spirit is life
Moses represents the natural, Christ is the spiritual, the natural is first then spiritual, the OC was about the natural, the 1st adam vs. the 2nd adam, the stone temple vs. the spiritual temple, laws written on stone vs. the laws written on our hearts

Heb 10:9 hen he added, “Behold, I have come to do your will.” He does away with the first in order to establish the second.
kill 10, slay 8, put to death 2, take up 1, do 1, take away 1

The Mosaic law is hung/killed on the cross, sin is condemned in the flesh(of Christ) and the power of sin is the law

Yes I believe all means all :slight_smile: