The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Gay Rights (Theologically Speaking)

This passage is referring to certain people taking pride in their extremist sin of sexual immortality and the result that follows namely, glorying in self and leading others to the same extreme. Paul calls for judgment so those walking in extreme sin can be reconciled to God, themselves and those around them. Obviously, we all struggle with sin but, slips or mistakes are different than taking pride in extremist sin behavior and being a bad example of who Christ is to others. If, as you seem to imply, you are walking in extreme sin, this scripture is saying be reconciled to God and do what is right in His eyes. He loves you and wants a good relationship with you. Correction is the vehicle God uses to restore relationship. I’m sure you are a wonderful example of God’s goodness Buddy and just misunderstood where the Scripture was coming from. This thread was (theologically speaking) which, I’m assuming means from our study of God, what is right to do concerning this issue. That is why I, and some others used Scripture in the discussion. Hopefully, that can be tolerated on a “christian forum”. If not,* I *will be very sad to have to ask to be removed from this site. This was my first forum and I feel attached to everyone here, even though we don’t all agree on all issues or points of theology. Honestly, I really don’t hold to “points of dogmatic christanity” but, I have read the Bible for several years now and my opinions are as honest as they can be. Perhaps, you find me intolerant (which is different than unloving), and perhaps, to you, that is intolerable. I hope not. Be that as it may, You all are in my prayers and my hope for you is all good things! Blessings to you, Buddy!

Greetings, Allan.
It is true that Paul is sometimes hard to understand. Though, I regard Paul’s discourse (inspired originally or not), more prudent than Mr. Alison’s in light of the loving, holy Creator of the universe. I think the reason Paul “falls over himself in his eagerness to have the man reinstated” is because the judgment/correction worked and the man returned to God in his heart and behaviors. What a way to glorify God as God! Blessings!

Hi Kelly

Here’s the text:

You are quite right in that this text could be interpreted as speaking of homosexuality but if we take it literally and without thought of cultural context it is only condemning those who are ‘camp’ and those who engage in one particular form of sex (which may apply to heterosexuals as well as homosexuals).
On the other hand, if we show more maturity in our approach to scripture, we have to ask ourselves (considering the culture) who precisely was Paul referring to? Isn’t it possible that the ‘effeminate sodomites’ was Paul’s best way of talking about that well-known group of lawless male prostitutes who would engage in loveless sexual interactions with multiple clients on a daily basis?
Can we be so sure that he was referring to someone who has a faithful life-long loving relationship with someone else who shares his/her gender?
Perhaps you are sure, but I am not and I have enough of my own failings to worry about before I get into the condemnation business.
May God bless us all as we struggle to understand the text and as we enter into the Spirit - who is The Word of God - Jesus Christ.

Just be dareful not to condemn those that believe that scripture calls homosexual behavior sin. I write this because we are often accused of being “self righteous”, “bigots”, etc. We have feelings too and can be persecuted as well.

Thanks, buddyb4-
I encourage all of us to pursue the truth on this and all issues and be prepared to follow it. It can hurt a lot to do so, this I know…
roof

Buddy,
Thanks for sharing! Putting a human face on the issue is helpful as this can be a very impersonal form of communication.

Sonia

Hi Buddy,

Thanks for your story. I am moved to tears.

Here are some verses that spring to mind.

“It is by grace we have been saved, through faith… it is the gift of God”

“Do not call unclean what I have called clean.”

“For everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, because it is consecrated by the word of God and prayer.”

“So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view… If anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come! All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ.”

“Finally, brothers… Aim for perfection. Listen to my appeal. Be of one mind. Live in peace. And the God of love and peace will be with you.”

Buddy, thanks for sharing your story so honestly. It was incredibly touching. Please continue to be patient with us – regardless of what we believe on homosexuality, we are sinful Pharisees all. Godspeed to you.

Sorry to hear of all your struggles, Buddy. I hope God works all for your good. That is my hope for ALL people which, is why I’m on this EU forum. I have no doubt He will. I’m not without “back issues” or sins myself. I also don’t condemn anyone, as I know I have made clear. You are “hearing” me be condemning but, I am only speaking my honest understanding of Scripture. I know this is a touchy subject for you and you have been hurt but, if you read back honestly, you should be able to see that I am speaking “theologically” and not condemning. I also have my own struggles. I was raised by a pagan mother who made me responsible for her feelings. Everything was my fault. I have also been abused and told to shut up because it was my fault. My whole life others have tried to skew my sense of right and wrong to exploit me without hindrance. For this reason, I have had to “suck it up” since I was a very young child. The Bible gave/gives me healthy boundaries and maintaining them is emotional stability and healing for me. I “hear” your long post as a manipulating, controlling way to make me bad and make shut me up. I feel bullied. Perhaps we misunderstand each other? The truth of God’s Word is life to me. It is my peace. Huge changes have taken place in me, it has been painful and difficult but, well worth it. For this reason, I will speak truth. So those who hear can be changed and set free. Everyone is at a different place but, none of us go unchanged by God. I am sorry if you are offended but, it is not my intention to offend, only to speak truth. If there is truly no sin, Christ died in vain. I don’t believe that because of my own sins. I believe God’s Word, who is Yeshua Messiah. If we don’t, what can we possibly know of Him? If we can’t believe the revelation we have of Him, how can we believe the revelation that comes from anywhere else? Truth is an important aspect to love. It is the aspect I have been called to bring to love. Not an easy calling especially, for a person who loves everyone and loves long-lasting relationships. I hope you can understand what I am saying. Blessings and peace!

Buddy, thanks for sharing. It’s far too easy to approach topics accademically and not personally. And yet personally is where it counts. Thanks for opening up and sharing of your life, love for God and for others. We all have our struggles and I’m sorry that some of the posts have come across as negative and judgmental. I believe it’s best to leave the judging of people, whether individuals or groups, especially groups, to God. For His judgments are not only true and just, but also merciful and restorative. When we get into judging one another, rarely if ever is it just, much less merciful and restorative. And I’m sorry for the rejection and exclusion you’ve received due to being gay. Loved ones of mine have gone through similar trials.

Is homosexuality wrong? Hmm, I believe so; but then again I have not invested much time in prayer and study on the issue, having simply understood passages traditionally. And though homosexuality be a sin, should we be negative and exclusive towards those struggling with that issue? I think not! Rather we should be inclusive and loving, for love covers a multitude of sins. It’s a subject certainly worth investing time and effort to prayerfully and studiously consider.

Anyhow, thanks again for sharing and to any other homosexuals reading this post or this forum, I do hope you’ll find it to be a place where we can discuss this and other issues, with grace, humility, and compassion for one another. Though this would be very challenging for several reasons, not the least of which being the unjust judgment, rejection, and abuse that people have received all in the name of “god”; though I’m confident that the “god” such people are appealing to is the “god” of this world, not the God of grace and mercy who reconciles us all!

Thanks again for sharing,
Sherman

It is offensive that you define yourself as having the truth and those who disagree with you, abandoned it. You can only abandon Truth, if you had it to begin with.

  1. Sodomites = They are rapists,** not exclusively homosexuals but hetrosexuals as well…**. They had sex with male and female a like.
    Genesis 19:4-7
    *Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom—both young and old—surrounded the house. They called to Lot, “Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them.”
    Lot went outside to meet them and shut the door behind him 7 and said, “No, my friends. Don’t do this wicked thing. Look, I have two daughters who have never slept with a man. Let me bring them out to you, and you can do what you like with them. But don’t do anything to these men, for they have come under the protection of my roof.” *

Go to your bible search program and type ‘rapist’ into the search engine and you will find no reference to a person being called rapist. To commit sodomy is to commit rape, a Sodomite means rapist.


  1. Arsenokoites = Ritualistic Sex Practices - They were men and women who had sex with priests and priestesses in exchange for fertility. In Leviticus 18 and 20 referred to the cultic practices of the followers of Molech, more accurately, they are men or women who had sex in ritual worship even children.

**Leviticus 18:1-3, 21-23 **
*The LORD spoke to Moses: "Speak to the Israelites and tell them: I am the LORD your God. Do not follow the practices of the land of Egypt, where you used to live, or follow the practices of the land of Canaan, where I am bringing you. You must not follow their customs.

"You are not to make any of your children pass through [the fire] to Molech. Do not profane the name of your God; I am the LORD. You are not to sleep with a man as with a woman; it is detestable. You are not to have sexual intercourse with any animal, defiling yourself with it; a woman is not to present herself to an animal to mate with it; it is a perversion.*

If you go read this, you will notice that this is ONE paragraph, there is no ‘new’ idea being presented. Passing your children through the fire to Molech (a religious practice) is in the same line as men not having sex with males or animals, and females not having sex with animals. The reason, God is not talking about homosexuality or bestiality; but specifically the religious practices of other religions. The word Arsenokoites was coined and used to describe unfaithful men forcing their wives into prostitution as well.

Arsenokoites are slavers who forced others into sexual relationships for the purpose of religious or cultic rituals. We call them ‘pimps’ today.


  1. Effeminate means to be a pedaphile. It refers to the Roman/Greek practice of keeping a child as a sexslave. This is reinforced even among the strictest anti-Homosexual Christian denominations, and I don’t even need to explain further as they even admit this fact.

So, we are called to research these things out before ‘declaring them as truth’ and we should definitely not go around passing on what religion has called ‘truth’ as being the truth because religion and religious people are wrong a lot. Being a Student of the Word is not an easy path.

“It is offensive that you define yourself as having the truth and those who disagree with you, abandoned it. You can only abandon Truth, if you had it to begin with.”

Aren’t you claiming to have the truth and saying that she has abandoned it? How do you know that God will not show you new things that show that you were wrong? Might you be wrong? Is that possible?

I am very good at proving people wrong and admitting when I am wrong; but, at no time do I ever say that disagreeing with me is some sort of abondonment of Truth. So your strawman is dismantled and burned to the ground.

Hi Kelly,

When it comes to sexual ethics, I’m not sure there’s an easy answer. Is it permissible to marry many wives? Can I make my wife’s slave my concubine? Is it permissible to marry a prostitute? (Hosea did.) Is it permissible to make a man into a eunuch? Can eunuchs go to church? Does having sex make us unclean in God’s eyes? Should we cut off the hand of a woman who grabs a man’s testicles in a fight? Is artificial contraception a sin, but natural contraception a virtue? Is celibacy better than marriage? Is a heterosexual marriage (whose partners hate God) more righteous than a homosexual marriage (whose partners love God)? If a woman is genetically XY, is she a man? If a physiological man is psychologically a woman, is he a woman? If it is right to change my psychology to match my physiology, why is it wrong to change my physiology to match my psychology?

Here’s David, presenting Saul with 200 Philistine foreskins as a bride price. Was that sexual abuse? Two hundred Philistines would have thought so! Did God condemn him for it? Not a whisper. David loved God with all his heart, and that love covered a multitude of sins.

I think the same is true of us all. We are called to love God. Seek first the Kingdom. Everything else will follow.

Let me guess, I can’t disagree with that?

What do we do when Jesus teaches us specific morality vs. just “seek the kingdom”? Your argument is rather faint. Much of what you deal with is from the OT. Do you see the OT as binding on NT believers?

I take the NT command to “maintain the unity of faith in the bond of peace” very seriously. I try to mind my own business and refrain from judging another man’s servant. It’s not my job to be Jesus’ earthly mouthpiece. I have no authority over my fellows, nor any profound moral insight. If, like the Pharisees of old, I busy myself telling others how to live, I will almost certainly do more harm than good. It’s far better to lead people to Christ and let him speak for himself.

But in effect you are teaching a morality. You are assessing the claims of Kelly. There is plenty more about “judging” that the NT has to say. In fact, we are to judge matters: “Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life!”

Who in their right mind would dare to discern good from evil without God by their side? Eve in all her new-born perfection made an independent moral choice and look how it ended. If only she had said, “Mr Snake, it’s been very nice talking to you, but I think I’ll wait until tomorrow before making my decision. The Lord God walks with us in the cool of the evening, you see. He knows all things and does all things well. I’ll mention our little conversation to him.”

Our prayer as Christians ought to be, “Know my heart. Test my thoughts. See if there be any wickedness in ME, and lead me in the way everlasting.” However, what we usually do is judge and condemn the “wickedness” in others. Because we fear and hate their sins, and because it distracts attention away from our own hearts, we then spend our time and energy gathering legal, cultural and emotional power to force others to conform to our own image. Achieving this, we believe ourselves to be righteous.

Here’s the “verse for the day” from Bible Gateway.

“And this I pray, that your love may abound yet more and more in knowledge and in all judgment; That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ.” Philippians 1:9-10