Ran was actually the one who brought up things that way, Craig; not Rodger.
Be fair. Rodger is replying to a thread started as a counter-trinitarian challenge by another poster. (Who by the way was asked to leave for being impolite about what he was doing. Incidentally, Ran was banned for a week for his own impoliteness in this thread recently. Rodger is being far more polite so far in this thread, not counting aggravations from RanRan.)
We (among the admins) don’t have problems with such threads in principle; not least because some of the people who created this site, and some of the guest authors they invited for this site (most notably myself in this case), believe and argue that trinitarianism is not only the truth but a truth important for universalism, too. We allow modalist universalists to post in favor of modalism, per se, so far as they can see to do so, for the same reason.
But we also engage in positive apologetics for trinitarian theism on this site, not only for universalism (of various kinds), as well as opening up discussion for pros and cons on various ortho-trin positions. Our site policy is to allow other members to do the same thing for positions other than ortho-trin, or for agnosticism on the topic (if they prefer). And one of several reasons for that, is because there are in fact trinitarians who do not in fact always correctly know (or understand, even if they know) the reasons for why non-trinitarians are not trinitarians.
Heck, if it comes to that, not all trinitarians are always theologically consistent in keeping to the precepts of that doctrinal set, even when as scholars they might be expected to do so–which isn’t surprising, considering its complexity and number of details. But ortho-trin teachers are usually well aware that especially at the popular level very few people who claim to believe ortho-trin really do know the details, or believe what the doctrinal set involves, or even know much about the rationales for the doctrinal set (other than what amounts, implicitly or explicitly, to “my teacher told me it’s true”.)
So actually yes, it’s fine for someone to post comments and create threads, trying to present non-trinitarianism on this forum, and trying to clear up “misunderstandings” on the topic. Thus sayeth the site owners, the guest authors (like me), the admins (including me) and the mods (ditto).
I’d actually like to see a critique of the paper Rodger posted a link to. I’ve read it, and I think it’s actually a very good description of many of the biblical issues. It is argued that neither Trinitarianism or Unitarianism is biblically correct, which I think is an interesting position.
This post below was made by YOU, on January 10, 2009… and here it is August 7th 2010, almost a YEAR and SEVEN MONTHS LATER… and you have YET to address the Scriptures in the OP of this TOPIC. “Trinity”… is there such an entity?
In this post below (no offense), …you make excuses instead of answer the OP, …and in making those excuses, have the audacity to ASSIGN “HOMEWORK” to me! …Recommending I read a long drawn out distraction that you have composed in the mean time? …please bro! I may be a tad uneducated, but I am no NIM-NOD!
Come on brother… get with it… that is, if you are able to do so… If not… I can understand, …which is why I do not believe in the “trinity”…
Btw… we are fast approaching the SECOND ANNIVERSARY of this topic and these “replies” of yours are still ABSENT…
Is THAT MUCH STALLING… really necessary bro JP?
This YEAR and a HALF long procrastination, only displays that your “trinitarian” belief is either pretty weak concerning actual SCRIPTURAL basis, or maybe as I have suggested, has no real Scriptural basis at all.
Knowing you and your (often intellectually distracted) responses (which beat around the bush, and rarely ever come to the point), …just find this TOPIC to be too difficult to be answered SIMPLY …because the belief in the “trinity” itself is a teaching, clouded amidst CONFUSION…
So here we are, …a YEAR and a HALF later, …and you are still found AVOIDING this TOPIC and its OP and the Scriptures listed, for the truth is that you really do not have a viable response to them…
Jason has NOT responded to the OP in THIS THREAD… or the Scriptures LISTED in it… as HE SAID, that He WOULD:
Those are His words, which he has not followed up… I should not have to search this ENTIRE (to use your words “BIG”) SITE to get his response to the OP of THIS THREAD, …that MIGHT (or MIGHT NOT) be somewhere within it!
If he truly has a response to these Scriptures, it is a simple matter to do so (as HE, in his own words said he would) IN THIS THREAD.
I’m not aware that Jason is on any kind of retainer from this site that compells him to contribute. Threads come and go - some fall by the wayside - that is no indication of a lack of an argument, especially if the topic gets covered by that person somewhere else.
***** Jeff edits out his own inappropriate response **************
Stop ******** **** ****** around like some testosterone fuelled teenager!
If Jesus hadn’t been resurrected he’d have spent the last 2 millenia spinning in his grave
Please don’t expect me to go looking for his (or your) replies which are made in another thread, concerning THIS topic. HE said he would answer HERE, and if he does not, then he has failed to follow through with his own words…
As I said, to this point no one (including you) IN THIS THREAD has addressed the Scriptures in the OP… instead, just made excuses for not doing so…
Waggling my tonker? How does one “waggle a tonker”? …and if you would be do kind Jeff, please define tonker, that I might know what exactly you propose that I am “waggling”!
Is this intended to upset me in some way?
I am sure Jason is well able to speak for himself… so relax a taste, bro…
All I have done is request that Jason follow through with his own promised address of the OP… which he HAS NOT DONE in over 1.5 years!
Oh, and by the way, I noticed that YOU have also failed to do as well!
Why not address the topic, and give your slant/answers — for those Scriptures, Jeff? Instead of getting yourself all up into a wrinkle over nothing.
What obligation ‘binds’ me to address this issue at all? I’m an atheist - why would I care one way or the other how many persons make up God? He can be sextuplets for all I care!
Why on earth should I want to ‘upset’ you? - I merely responded to what struck me as unwarrented taunting and goading of Jason for not having returned to this thread - it’s not compulsory.
That said… I withdraw the genital reference as it is unbecoming for these boards and sincerely apologise for it.
So as to contribute something on topic (the title doesn’t mention God or the Bible specifically) then yes there is an entity ‘trinity’ - in Cajun cooking celery, garlic and onion form a trinity of ingredients which form the heart of many recipes (often referred to as ‘holy’).
If you are really an ATHIEST (I was once one), then why are you wasting your time with us “delusionals”?
If I am not mistaken you note yourself as an “AGNOSTIC UNIVERSALIST”… which is
(1) an oxy moron, for a UNIVERSALIST believes in the Salvation of ALL, not… just in case there IS a GOD (agnostic)
(2) If you are an ATHIEST then you are NOT an AGNOSTIC… an ATHIEST firmly believes there IS NO such thing as GOD.
Athiests base their “BELIEF” (which is kinda ironic ) …upon the premise that the existence of GOD cannot be PROVEN, and falsely conclude from this false foundation, that He does not exist…
As an ATHIEST, …I challenge you to PROVE that he does not exist.
And while you are at it… show us how DNA and PROTEIN which are the basic foundation of all life… “EVOLVED”, …when ONE cannot even EXIST without the other.
hmmm… If a discussion topic is proposed, then those which actually enter it, should address it… If you could not, or did not wish to address it, why are you wasting time with it?
And your irreverance to GOD (“He can be sextuplets for all I care”), is offensive… so, along with your apology below, which was good, all you have done is continue in your disrespect.
(1) No one said it is that response is COMPULSORY… all that I have done is state FACTS… Jason IN HIS OWN WORDS, said he would reply and address the Scriptures noted in the OP, and he HAS NOT for 1.5 years. No one is THAT busy.
(2) “GOADING” comments below…
Thanks for your “withdrawal” (not that you truly can “take back” words, if you are honest, which I have no reason to doubt, you meant what you said.)… However, it is decent of you to apologize, and I commend you for it as well as accept it… for in the end, you were actually “GOADING” me for (what you considered as) “GOADING” Jason, eh?
As far as Jason is concerned, …don’tcha think he can handle his own affairs? He appears quite intelligent to me, so I am fairly certain that intelligence is not his problem, …what IS his problem, is that he can either ADDRESS the topic, or he CANNOT… to date, only one appears so far… 1.5 years of FAILURE to address this TOPIC.
I have no interest in endless argument and counter argument for or against the existence of God. I have disclosed plenty of information about myself (including about by sig) elsewhere on this board which you are free to look up or ignore as you wish. What I won’t do is subserviantly bring this information to you here in this thread just because this is the place where you have demanded to see it.
As for why I am a moderator here that is my business entirely.
During my time here I have seen many who reinforce any ‘dragging’ that God may be bringing to bear on me and many who through their words unwittingly add a repulsive force in the opposite direction to that drag - so caught up in their own righteousness and eloquence of argument are they.
If I were to meet Christ face to face which approach would he take do you think? Would he belittle me? Scoffingly challenging me to prove this and that or get out of here? Or would he meet me in my need? If I have not love I am a clanging cymbal.
When I read your posts I don’t see Him I see ‘ME! ME! ME!’ - you aren’t alone in that.
(1) – No one is so trying to engage you, Jeff… I do not see how you have deduced this from replies to you. I have simply stated FACTS… They being that neither YOU nor Jason, has addressed the Scriptures in the OP…
(2) – I am not going to search the site for replies made elsewhere that MIGHT be pertinent to this topic. If you don’t wish to answer, simple… DON’T.
I had no idea you were a moderator here, and the question has not been asked by me… Again, I don’t know where you are getting this stuff from?
I have not suggested that God has done any “dragging” concerning you… and if He did (and He will)… you would/will not have any choice in the matter…
No one is caught up in their own righteousness… that I have requested that Jason reply as HE SAID HE WOULD… has nothing to do with raising “righteousness” at all… Just a stated FACT.
I think you shall be quite surprised at how CHRIST will deal with you (it is not a case of “IF”), should you present other than HIMSELF IN YOU, to Him – Matt 7:22-23
And your postings to me are an “example” of this “LOVE”?
It was not I that noted me to be “tonking my waggler like a testosterone fuelled child”… that were YOU, bro…
What have I said to you which you consider unloving, and why? …I am not unwilling to learn or be corrected…
I present the WORD and the TRUTH as best that I know how… and challenge fallacy in doing so… Nothing personal… you however have chosen to walk this “personal” road with me…
Please SPECIFICLY note to me the UNLOVING and UNCHRISTLIKE things that I have stated, which caused this personal issue , to arise this in you… (saying – “When I read your posts I don’t see Him I see ‘ME! ME! ME!’”)
You do not even BELIEVE in Him, or that He truly exists… so how is it that YOU determine that YOU, cannot percieve HIM in ME?
Most do not like challenge or confrontation of their POLITICAL or SPIRITUAL beliefs… you appear no different than most. I am not here to agree with fallacy… I am here to CHALLENGE it… Those who cling to it, will no doubt resent me, just as they RESENTED CHRIST when He proposed TRUTH to them…
Maybe we can resolve this, maybe not, but I am willing to try to see what has made you so “up in a wrinkle”, and make apologies that might be necessary (if indeed they are due)…
What part of this answer:
(1) brought up your position as moderator? (2) did not display CHRIST? (3) proposed SELF RIGHTEOUSNESS, (4) is an ENDLESS arguement? (5) suggested GOD “dragging” anyone? (6) suggested you to be subserviant?
You brought up why I visit these boards - I said that was my business - I brought up the moderator as extra information to show that I am not just a casual visitor but have invested more than that here. But of course you are looking for confrontation nothing more - you are here to show us poor mistaken wretches just how much you know better than us - in fact, just like you did last time you were here.
The second part of the quote shows where you have engaged with me by demanding I answer your challenges.
Christ was only confrontational with the ruling religious leaders never with the prostitutes, tax collectors or publicans with whom he ate and drank to such an extent that the religious leaders called him (in that wonderful KJV phrase) a winebibber. I firmly place myself in the camp of the latter - a sinner to the core.
As for christlike behaviour the arrogance of your certainty that all the things you currently believe are 100% correct and that all things your religious opponents believe is absolute rubbish shows the truth or otherwise of that. They may see through a glass darkly but you see through clear glass that has been polished to a shine.
I am well happy to concede that I may be completely wrong in my worldview but you aren’t. so let’s see you tick off any of the following characteristics that apply to you…
Whether you like it or not you are witnessing to me as a non-believer just as everyone else here is who claim to be a Christian. You can rail and spit all you like but the fruit of your witness to me is only known in my heart and by God (if he or she exists). However I doubt you’ll concede this last point as you probably already ‘know’ by some divine communication system what your witness is doing to me and I expect you think it is the most marvelous thing I have ever encountered.
I am not going to engage in hijacking this thread any further. We obviously don’t have any comon ground (and I seem to remember the same thing happening last time too).
If you wish to take this as a great victory for your unanswerable questions (perhaps you should engage a biologist rather than a web designer about complex biological issues that neither you nor I know enough about to form a coherent argument) then do so - I concede defeat to your superior powers of debate.
Okay… I can see that you noting you are a moderator shows you are not a “casual visitor”, and I did not even suggest this anyway! …but why did you not just state this in this manner instead of all the “ring-around-the-rosy”? Such as… “I am a moderator on this forum willieH, and not just a casual visitor here…”
FIRST — Jeff… This is a discussion forum… and in discussion of varying topics, shall there arise differing viewpoints… I am not “looking for confrontation” at all… What this amounts to is yet another assumption made by you, nothing more.
Within the challenging statements made to others (in the interest of TRUTH), as to the validity of a given position, shall at times, dependent upon the sincerity and dedication of those who are searching for TRUTH (not just trying and/or hoping to maintain a BELIEF or BELIEFS which they presently HOLD as “TRUTHFUL”), shall confrontation arise…
SECOND — I was a member of the Salvation Army (20yrs) and 7th Day Adventist (5yrs) churches, in addition to affiliations and ministries with Assembly of God, Pentecostal independents, Healing Rooms International, all of which are TRINITARIAN believing entities… Though I have NO BAD REPORT of any of these, and I love and miss many which I spent long periods of time becoming an active part both as a member and in service… I did not gravitate to their several strawman presentation of the TRINITY, and resultingly, have departed each in time, due to the fact that I have found BIBLICAL foundation that disposes of this belief.
THIRD — I have not and WILL NOT call you “mistaken” or “WRONG”… Yes I believe you to be VEILED… but the TRUTH is that only GOD is RIGHT… And none of us have the “right” to note the other “WRONG”, for it is at HIS DESCRETION and at HIS DECISION, when and IF we shall come to KNOW any aspect of HIS TRUTH…
The only way that YOU can determine ME as “wrong” or I, YOU… is by using our own belief as the measure to do so. So I choose to use HIS WORD combined with the REASON that HE INSTRUCTS we involve ourselves, in our pursuit of Him – Isaiah 1:18 – to discover the TRUTH that is actually WRITTEN in the WORD…
In proposing that you provide substanciation for your “beliefs” which coincides with the Scripture is not abusive, nor is it “calling you a wretch”… it is an attempt to urge you to EXAMINE what you “believe” in proximity to the WORD of God…
You being AGNOSTIC or ATHIEST (I am not sure which of these you actually aspire to, for they are NOT the same)… puts you into a position of “believing” that a process other than GOD, is responsible for LIFE and the existence of the Universe we observe…
That I requested you to explain the scientific foundation of life = DNA/PROTEIN — which are 2 entirely different elements that cannot exist without the other… is not calling you a “wretch”… It is a VALID QUESTION, which plainly dissolves the conjecture of evolution (that is unless you can explain how BOTH just EVOLVED simultaneously, thereby facilitating the existence of the other)…
Also, it must be explained WHAT these 2 “evolved” from, for they could NOT have “evolved” from each other.
I fail to see how this is noting you to be a “wretch”? It is just an honest prompting which is sincerely presented in hopes you shall INVESTIGATE your present position as AGNOSTIC or ATHEIST, whichever the case may be.
I did not DEMAND anything of you… I challenged you… are you up to the challenge? If you believe a given thing, then you must (or should) have foundation for doing so, otherwise the “belief” is delusional, having no REASONBLE foundation or explanation… Why should such a challenge, if indeed has VALID GROUNDS, be intimidating or abusive? If it is TRUE that there is NO GOD, then as the ATHIEST or AGNOSTIC might say “then, prove He exists”… wherein is disrespect found in a reply that says “prove He does not exist”?
I am not sure how you being an ATHIEST or AGNOSTIC, can consider yourself a “sinner”, Jeff? If you do not even believe that GOD exists (ATHIEST) …or… you are not convinced that God does or does not exist (AGNOSTIC)… then how can you find the convictions of GOD which note men to be “sinners” due to their varying misbehaviors?
FIRST — I am not CERTAIN that all I believe is 100% correct, and I have NEVER noted this… Nor have I noted that the beliefs of others are “absolute rubbish”… Let me ask you a question… Do you believe that “believers” in God are delusional? Do you consider yourself ARROGANT for believing this? It is no more ARROGANT for me to “BELIEVE”, that it is for you to “DISBELIEVE”…
What this amounts to, is a strawman assumption that you have erected in order to distract from actually answering questions from me.
If what you “believe” is TRUE, then why not show ME where in fact, is found the error of what I “believe”? It is NOT ARROGANT to believe…
It is ARROGANT to claim that another is “WRONG” due to ones own belief in a given thing, while failing and being UNWILLING to prove the TRUTH of ones “belief” …which in its ESTABLISHMENT, notes the other’s “belief” as the one in question.
SECOND — Of the 2 of us… I have volunteered Scriptural basis for my belief… and in doing so, have challenged my opposers –
(1) trinitarians such as Jason, to show in the Scriptures the TRUTH of the “trinity”, refuting me… or, (2) Athiest/Agnostics such as yourself to show Scientifically that there is NO GOD, refuting me…
Jeff… this is like me telling (informing) you… “Hey Jeff, you have some dirt on your face” and YOU reacting to your vision of my face without dirt upon it, as insulting, instead of going to the MIRROR and finding out whether or not what I have said to you was true or mischievous.
I am like all other human beings (with the exception of CHRIST)… Only a MEASURE of faith has been given me – Rom 12:3 – and in that (incomplete) MEASURE, I shall not have TOTAL and CLEAR – FULL vision of the HOLY…
I am studied over a long life of dedication, which has remained OPEN to God, in the face of ORGANIZATIONS which urged me to believe as do they… Instead of ignorantly complying with their presentations, I have sought the pathway that YHVH God decided HE would note to me… and have, within my imperfect and incomplete way, though I have stumbled along, diligently seeking after the LIGHT, instead of POSITION that I easily could have had within the ORGANIZATIONS…
I shall continue to gracefully answer you Jeff… but do you not see that this whole post is an effort to disregard QUESTIONS asked of you that challenge you? You present CHALLENGE to me below… yet are UNWILLING to comply with CHALLENGE made to YOU by me… yet fully EXPECT me to respond? Which is indeed, the arrogant position?
(1) — Being a non-believer in God, how may you deduce the SPIRITUAL notation of the SPIRIT of LOVE? And in what way have I violated your perception of this premise, in my conversation with you?
My observance of the respect of YHVH in the SPIRIT of LOVE, is done before Him daily, that I shall not so much as kill even a spider which errantly comes into my home, …for I hold a DEEP respect for the LIFE it possesses in the SPIRIT of LOVE toward the spider, and the Creator which GAVE that spider its life… how about you, Jeff?
(2) — JOY — I am completely elated and immersed in the JOY of the LOVE of YHVH God… who, in spite of my myriad misbehaviors and mistakes, STILL LOVES me, and shall SAVE me from those misbehaviors and mistakes…
(4) — PATIENCE — I have been patient with you Jeff (in particular)… and will continue to be patient with you for you are a SON of the MOST HIGH (irregardless of the fact you have yet to KNOW this). That patience does not preclude the challenges given you… nor does it allow me to be upset with you for avoiding them, either!
(5) — KINDNESS — I believe that representing TRUTH by using the WORD and presenting it to others is the ULTIMATE KINDNESS to them… I have spent many hours, days and years… to include my own humble prosperities, …raising children that were NOT sired by me, …supporting the community in service to their needs (food, clothing, shelter)… Even committing monetary support to others which I shall never KNOW in this life, to disparities abroad… ALL this from a musician that made around $4000 last year, enough “kindness”? …how about you Jeff?
(6) — GOODNESS — I spend most of my day in the WORD, …every day. This is my dedication to that which is GOOD, for – Matt 19:17 – CHRIST said …“why callest thou Me GOOD, there is only ONE, GOOD, that is GOD”
(7) — FAITHFULNESS — I actually began in a small group of believers which totaled around 15, of which to this day, fo those 15 – only my wife and I remain Christians (including the pastor who led the group)… I have remained since becoming a believer, in 34 years of service to GOD and His WORD, both serving my fellow man, and seeking throughout that period, His WORD for the TRUTH available in it to be found… How about you Jeff?
(9) — SELF CONTROL — Now this one is a challenger! Even though you have provoked me several times brother, …I have remained in CONTROL of any angers which might wish to be enjoined in my responses to you… I am not perfect in any of these, but am CONTINUALLY involved with ALL of them in my life. How about you Jeff?
I shall not present to you, an UNBELIEVER… that which is NOT FOUNDED upon the WORD… And when the WORD is presented to you by me… it shall speak for Itself…
I have been “witnessing” to people like you the last 34 years of my 65 year life, Jeff… for a short time, I was a drug addiction counselor… I spent time witnessing of the Love of GOD in a HOMELESS shelter for almost a year… in which MANY had cause to be UPSET with GOD, due to the compositions and results of their lives…
That you might become uncomfortable with your own DISBELIEF in God, due to conversing with me, suggests the insecurity of your position, it does NOT suggest that my “witness” of Him, concerning you is in question. Many of the followers in the early church (especially the Apostles), were tormented and even put to death by those to whom they “witnessed”…
Explain your position of UNBELIEF to me Jeff… maybe by noting scientifically, why my witness is INVALID? And in what WAY my “witness” has been poorly presented to you, by me.
I have not positioned myself above you (as an AGNOSTIC or ATHIEST) in any way, nor above any other BELIEVER in GOD… for I believe in CDS [COMPLETE DIVINE SOVEREIGNTY], which notes that ALL is foreordained to be as it IS… and each shall follow a pathway that GOD decides they shall walk – Rom 9:16-18 – Prov 20:24 – 16:1,9 – 21:1 – Jer 10:23
Rail and spit? Come on dear brother… Please note to me the “railing and spitting” comments I have made to you. If you cannot, it is the DISCOMFORT of your own position in LIFE, that feels so assaulted… mainly because the TRUTH, at times… HURTS. If you actually really BELIEVED that there is NO GOD, or even if just UNCONVINCED… you would have some BASIS for this, other than just because you haven’t “seen Him” lately… The AIR exists, even though no one has ever SEEN IT… People “believe” other places EXIST in the World, even though they have NEVER SEEN THEM… come on.
To base your BELIEF on this type of foundational premise is pretty weak. No one has ever SEEN an ATOM, yet we KNOW they exist… No one has ever SEEN the center of the Earth or the Sun, yet we KNOW they exist…
As I said Jeff… I was once an ATHIEST in my early years… so, as to where you ARE at present in this “belief”… been there, done that.
More assumptions made of me, by you, brother Jeff… You make this all about YOURSELF! I do not even CARE if you recieve ANYTHING that I say… for it is up to GOD, whether or not you shall benefit by your momentary convo with me, or no.
It does not even matter to me, one way or the other. I write that others (as well as the one I address), might read and benefit. This has and WILL continue to take place in my ministry… I have had MANY messages conveyed to me, by people that did not even enter a given conversation, that noted having benefited by what I proposed in discussion. The centering upon self which happens in both DISBELIEVING positions as well BELIEVING ones, …is the biggest evidence of insecurity… It is when one concerns themselves with OTHERS first, that self is actually found its secure, rightful and most beneficial place… Which is WHY that it does not matter to me, whether or not my words are used by God or not. For HIS GLORY is what I seek, and if HIS GLORY is obtained by the ignorance of my words, then I hail that decision.
Btw… please don’t feel bad, and please know, that I am not trying to speak harmfully to you… if we are honest, we are all in the position of SELFISHNESS at times…
As I believe, …your converstation with me, and mine with you, was decided before ANYTHING was even EXISTENT, for it was NOT YET DONE when the DECLARATION, made in the WORDS of YHVH, was made – Isaiah 46:10 – I do not EXPECT anything. I do my best in presenting the WORD of YHVH, and then leave the results of my presentation in HIS HANDS to use or not.
He decides to employ my words or to leave them inert in the ears/eyes of those they were presented to. And I have no problem with HIS DECISIONS of with the results which occur in the USE or NONUSE of them…
Hmmm… which of us has derailed this topic, Jeff? And bringing up past differences (which you have not named), in order to EMPHASIS dissensions… is not profitable.
Jeff… does this not even rattle your position slightly in your mind? I am not a scientist! I am a self-taught musician… But concerning the arguements AGAINST the existence of GOD… I have bothered to research at least a little, as to whether they have even the slightest creedence!
You remain an AGNOSTIC or ATHIEST, based upon a false foundation. If you cannot take a moment to find out whether or not I have stated a TRUTH concerning DNA/PROTEIN, then you evade even the foundation of your own DISBELIEF… let alone the TRUTH that GOD exists because SCIENCE, in their OBSTINATE arrogance… has discovered the SIGNATURE of the ALMIGHTY in the DNA/PROTEIN paradox…
You ignore the basis of your own DISBELIEF, and invalidate it by that ignorance. It has nothing to do with any “superior power” that you concede to me (which I do not have, anyway)!!!
I wish you the BEST brother… especially wishing that this conversation might cause you to investigate your position concerning the existence of GOD.
As for the DNA protein I feel that for you this is an argument from personal incredulity - you can’t see how this could have arisen naturally so that proves the existence of the Christian God and the Bible. I believe that science will slowly erode these apparently inexplicable facts of nature in the same way that it has done so very successfully in the past for other seemingly inexplicable phenomena.
This is my (non facetious) explanation of my sig The Agnostic Universalist
To me the worst crime I could commit in relation to declaring myself to be a Christian would be that of hypocrisy. I genuinely find the advanced arguments and counter-arguments put forth by both naturalists and theists plausible (I don’t know if you’ve read any of them but there are deep and complex philosophical positions held on both sides of that divide); hence I use the tag ‘Agnostic’. But many believe that reasoned argument has no place in determining the existence or otherwise of a deity; that leaves personal revelation or some kind of Damascus road experience neither of which I have ever experienced. The result is, therefore, that if I were to declare openly as a Christian I would be lying and hence no better off than if I honestly hold my current position (or even outright atheism). I doubt that even you would berate me for holding this worldview in complete honesty and integrity.
As for Universalist part - i was born into and grew up in the Plymouth Brethren in the UK - I was steeped in Bible study for about 20 years (albeit of a John Nelson Darby dispensationalist hell-fire type). Therefore, unlike many non-believers, I have read all the books in the bible many times over and studied many of them in detail. Therefore, it is not surprising that I continue to study it - it is part of who I am. That said - I am now convinced that the Bible teaches across its entirety Universal Reconciliation - hence the Universalist part of my sig. However, that doesn’t mean I believe that is the nature of reality (whatever that turns out to be). Therefore - I find the arguments for and against finely balanced but I hope Judeo-Christian Universalism is true.
So - far from being an Oxy-Moron - it is a reasoned and honest statement of my position.
**** Edited **** to include a link to an example of pro and con arguments of a theistic nature that quickly go over my head
The link is to the discussion attached to a blog post by Eric Reitan in which he starts a series of articles designed to undermine naturalism as an explanation for consciousness (it’s easy to click back to the blog post itself). This is for illustrative purposes only and not meant to start an argument about consciousness
I may be a tad uneducated, but I am no NIM-NOD! 
