Can a Non-Believer Live a Moral Life?

[Origen]

Likewise, saying that we have inherited sin from our parents leads one to believe that he is incapable of doing anything about it.

That depends.

If the sin is an extremely powerful force, but one that can be resisted by the will alone (or by the will in co-operation with the grace of God), then created beings are capable of doing something about it.

OTOH if created beings in slavery to sin are like dead corpses in their graves, can they do anything to resurrect themselves?

1As He passed by, He saw a man blind from birth. 2And His disciples asked Him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he would be born blind?” 3Jesus answered, “It was neither that this man sinned, nor his parents; but it was so that the works of God might be displayed in him.

For God has imprisoned everyone in disobedience so he could have mercy on everyone.

19For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. 20For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now. 23And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body.

For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

[davo]

I believe as it says in the Declaration of Independence, "We hold these Truths to be self- evident, that all men are created equal,…

That must really grate against and get stuck in the throat of the Calvinist of any consistency as their doctrine of ‘election’ makes it plain and clear… all men are NOT created equal.

[anon12438761]

That’s a damn good point.

[Holy-Fool-P-Zombie]

That’s a damn good point.

[anon12438761]

You’re a bit off your game, Randy? That was NOT a zombie, unless they are paying more attention to personal hygiene these days.

[davo]

If a non-believer is immoral by birth but becomes moral by belief what does that say about said belief when that now moral person behaves immorally? Apart from the arrogance underpinning the basic belief of TD it is only ignorance that then tries to pin it on God’s chest.

[maintenanceman]

Thanks Randy

[maintenanceman]

If a non-believer is immoral by birth but becomes moral by belief what does that say about said belief when that now moral person behaves immorally? Apart from the arrogance underpinning the basic belief of TD it is only ignorance that then tries to pin it on God’s chest.

This is big.

[anon12438761]

George MacDonald “followed Plato in thinking that evil was. to a large extent, a result of deprivation and not depravation. Human beings sinned because they did not see the truth clearly, and to have a clear vision of God would mean that they would be so overwhelmed by his love, that all wrongdoing would be immediately set aside. Seeing right was the beginning of acting right, and Christ was the clearest picture of God given to humankind”
-http://www.george-macdonald.com/articles/theology.html

[Origen]

Yep Pelagius fell afoul of Augustine and Co.’s Romish rule, being duly declared a heretic by the orthodoxy of the day… there was plenty of Rome the likes of Calvin still clung to.

Pelagianism would have been condemned in any day, whether that of Origen or St Paul.

[steve7150]

It is my view that each of Adam’s descendants has inherited from Adam and Eve a nature that has a tendency to sin (or do wrong), but CERTAINLY HAS NOT inherited a nature that is totally depraved and can perform no righteous acts.
Last edited by Paidion on Mon Oct 16, 2017 2:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

I believe scripture says we inherited mortality from Adam but from Adam sin came into the world (in general). So this proclivity to sin has been in man from the beginning IMHO.

[steve7150]

Since the fall of man, then, it has been mankind’s dilemma that no human can restore his nature to union with God’s grace; it was necessary for God to effect another change in human nature."

I don’t want to get sidetracked but the expression “fall of man” is not a biblical description. Neither is “restore his nature to union with God’s grace” although it sounds lovely.
There are certain choices of belief we must make regarding Christ and God like Jesus is Lord,son of God,died for our sins and rose from the dead for us to be saved.
I really can’t imagine why we s/b incapable of making this kind of choice since it benefits us dramatically? In the bible you can occasionally find expressions that Calvinists use to support “total depravity” but usually they have a local context or it’s hyperbole to make a point.

[davo]

…but from Adam sin came into the world (in general). So this proclivity to sin has been in man from the beginning IMHO.

Two things are worth noting…

1) the “proclivity to sin” WAS clearly there BEFORE it was actualised. 2) For something to gain entrance (in this case “sin”) presupposes its prior existence.

[LLC]

…but from Adam sin came into the world (in general). So this proclivity to sin has been in man from the beginning IMHO.

Two things are worth noting…

1) the “proclivity to sin” WAS clearly there BEFORE it was actualised. 2) For something to gain entrance (in this case “sin”) presupposes its prior existence.

I agree. I think people try to make Adam into something more than he was. As if God left it up to this one man to decide whether all mankind would be sinners or saints. To me he was simply a man, just like the rest of us. Yes,I believe God did leave the choice up to one man whether to be a sinner or a saint, and that one man is you, yourself.

LLC wrote:Likewise, saying that we have inherited sin from our parents leads one to believe that he is incapable of doing anything about it.

That depends.

If the sin is an extremely powerful force, but one that can be resisted by the will alone (or by the will in co-operation with the grace of God), then created beings are capable of doing something about it.

Those who have become mature in the Spirit are to teach and instruct others in the ways of the Lord. A teacher who tells his/her students that they have no brains, should not be a teacher. Likewise, a spiritual teacher would not say, “You have no spirit.”, but instead nurture and teach of the spirit that they have.

[Origen]

First let me clarify “a moral life.” I do not refer only to a sexually moral life, but to a moral life in general—that is a life in which the person serves others, and does not harm others. For example, he helps those who are in need, and refrains from theft, murder, deceiving, and taking advantage of others in any way.

Let me be clear. In saying “a moral life” I am not suggesting that the person is perfect in righteousness and NEVER does something which is morally wrong. Rather I am suggesting that his general life pattern is that of doing right toward other people, and avoiding doing them wrong in any way. He respects other people rather than feeling superior to them, and degrading them before others.

Please comment on the choice you made.

Do you suppose such an outwardly pharisaical “moral life” makes that one any more righteous in the sight of God than those living relatively sinfully, heroin addicts, Hell’s Angels, harlots, Hitler, Saul of Tarsus or serial killers?

[anon12438761]

Rather I am suggesting that his general life pattern is that of doing right toward other people, and avoiding doing them wrong in any way. He respects other people rather than feeling superior to them, and degrading them before others.

That does not sound ‘outwardly pharasaical’ to me - it sounds more like a good person. I know people like that.

[Origen]

Rather I am suggesting that his general life pattern is that of doing right toward other people, and avoiding doing them wrong in any way. He respects other people rather than feeling superior to them, and degrading them before others.

That does not sound ‘outwardly pharasaical’ to me - it sounds more like a good person. I know people like that.

Generally speaking those who are considered by society/the world to be good people are just so outwardly and superficially. Like the Pharisees.

Do you know the heart of the “good person” & why he is the way he is, or how he would be if his life’s circumstances were different?

Do you suppose such are any more righteous in the sight of God than those living relatively sinfully, heroin addicts, Hell’s Angels, harlots, Hitler, Saul of Tarsus or serial killers?

[Holy-Fool-P-Zombie]

Origen:

Generally speaking those who are considered by society/the world to be good people are just so outwardly and superficially. Like the Pharisees.

Do you know the heart of the “good person” & why he is the way he is, or how he would be if his life’s circumstances were different?

No, I don’t *know *, but I think it’s reasonable to assume “because he/she genuinely cares about other people.”. I think you are waaaay too judgmental/cynical, if the idea that unbelievers can care about other people is absurd to you.

And we have not defined a “believer”. Is that someone who believes in, what a creed says - like the Nicene or Apostles creed? Or what a mainstream, Christian church teaches? Would Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses be considered believers? Why or why not? And would you classify everyone on this forum - a believer? How EXACTLY do you define a believer?

[LLC]

How EXACTLY do you define a believer?

One who loves God and follows the Golden Rule. We should know them by their fruit.

[Holy-Fool-P-Zombie]

How EXACTLY do you define a believer?

One who loves God and follows the Golden Rule. We should know them by their fruit.

Here’s an interesting article, I’ve shared today - via email:

Double belonging: Buddhism and Christian faith bit.ly/2xWUfwJ