The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Can a Non-Believer Live a Moral Life?

Do these people even read the Bible? There are many who had fellowship with God, for example, Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Elijah, Job, Samson, Samuel, David, Solomon, Moses etc. etc. The list goes on and on.

This is basically denying the Spirit of God that speaks to our hearts and minds. As I mentioned previously, such words came from the mouth of a serpent even before the fall. " God told you this? Really?" One thing is true, that after Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit, it did affect their conscience. They were both ashamed of what they’d done and it changed them for the better because they found out God’s words were true. This is the reason why they left the garden as it says in Matthew 10:36 " He who finds his life will lose it , and he who loses his life for My sake will find it."

How does a list of a few people who had “fellowship with God” relate to, or disprove, the statement [not mine BTW] you are responding to?

I’m quite sure Calvinists read the Bible. They even seem to put more emphasis on that & holy living than Christians in general.

BTW, as regards David, for example, from your list, even after having “fellowship with God” he committed premeditated adultery & murder. This man who is said to be after God’s own heart.

How do those words (not mine) deny that? Do you deny that sin affected a fall in Adam & Eve?

Is the Spirit of God speaking to the hearts & minds of suicide bombers to blow themselves & others into pieces?

Was the Spirit of God speaking to the hearts & minds of those of Noah’s time:

Gen.6:5 The LORD saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time.

Did that include Noah? Who later found grace with God?

Here’s a question, that has been puzzling me. Would the world come to believe in Total Depravity, if the Zombie apocalypse
( see en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zombie_apocalypse) were to occur?

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mcnm7ejPr71rrfrqco1_500.gif

If you’re not interested enough in actually getting answers to read a 15 minute essay, I’m not going to do it for you.
No offense - I don’t think you’ve debunked a thing. I don’t think you have actually thought this through on your own yet. Perhaps I’m wrong. Perhaps yu are sincere, perhaps you are getting off on trolling. I’m not sure.

It is my view that each of Adam’s descendants has inherited from Adam and Eve a nature that has a tendency to sin (or do wrong), but CERTAINLY HAS NOT inherited a nature that is totally depraved and can perform no righteous acts.

Sorry, i’m not feeling motivated to read or address the essay.

Evidently others (yourself included) are not motivated enough to respond to my refutation of the 3 argument article that took me hours to write up & post in this thread.

In chess that’s what you might call a “stalemate”.

In my thinking, though, you’ve been checkmated, mate! :smiley:

Of course you do.
I see now where you are coming from, and that actually I’m wasting my time with you.

“Fallen, that’s the way we all begin” [4’ minute song]:

youtube.com/watch?v=shANsSX … _a6aMB_wyc

There seems to be 5 main views about salvation and what it means.

  1. **Inclusivism ** (I think that’s what it’s called)

In this view Jesus’ sacrifice covers everybody automatically. So everyone has been automatically saved as a result. But from what are they saved has not yet been made clear to me. Would God have sent everyone to hell forever, if Christ had not died for us?

  1. Calvinism
    Jesus’ sacrifice covers all the elect. The elect are saved from everlasting torment. The non-elect will have to undergo it.

  2. Fundamentalism
    Jesus sacrifice covers everyone who acknowledges that he is a sinner, and who accepts Christ as his personal Saviour or who believes in the efficacy of His saving grace. Everyone who accepts Christ is positionally righteous and will go to heaven. Everyone else will have to undergo eternal torment.

  3. Works Righteousness
    Do enough good works and avoid evil works and you’ll make it to heaven and avoid hell. Actually, I’ve never met anyone who actually believes this, but those subscribing to Calvinism and Fundamentalism think this view is ubiquitous.

  4. Early Christianity

The purpose of Christ’s sacrifice is to deliver us from sin, and be purified in this life, and be zealous for righteousnes so that we will become fit for the next. This purification is a life-long process. The apostles Paul and Peter expressed this.

  • Peter 2:24 He himself endured our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed.

II Corinthians 5:15 And he died for all, that those who live might live no longer for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

Romans 14:9 For to this end Christ died and lived again, that he might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.

Titus 2:14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all iniquity and to purify for himself a people of his own who are zealous for good deeds.

Heb 9:26 …he has appeared once for all at the end of the age for the abolition of sin by the sacrifice of himself.*

However, if we never enter the door of salvation and undergo this process in the present life, we will need to be corrected in the next life. Out of His LOVE, God will provide exactly what we need to correct us. This may be severe, but never more that we absolutely need. God never acts out of retribution, but only out of LOVE—always.

Inclusivism is best covered in the article at Inclusivist . And not everyone is “automatically saved”. But I am also “hopeful” all are saved, as covered in Purgatorial Conditionalist .

I gave you my answer here:

As the Bible says: “For the word of God is living and active sharper than any double edged sword. It pierces even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow, it is able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.”
And as Romans 1:18 -20 “For he wrath of god is revealed against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world his invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made…”

I disagree. Ezekiel Chapter 18 discusses this. “What do you mean when you use this proverb concerning the land of Israel saying, ‘The fathers have eaten sour grapes and the children’s teeth are set on edge’? As I live, says the Lord God, you shall no longer use this proverb in Israel. Behold all souls are Mine; the soul who sins shall die…”
We are responsible for our own sin.

That’s Origen - chatting with Dave - but also addressing us.

It’s not motivation. It’s time. There’s only so many hours in a day. And my time is pretty booked (i.e. learning languages, social media engagement, helping a homeopath, promote and publish a repertory, church and wisdom traditions, etc.).

At the end of the day, those presenting the best logical arguments - doesn’t make a theological concept true. And I’m sure God will tell, the logicians among us - the same thing…At the end of time. :smiley:

One can use logic and scripture - to prove:

We are all products, of a hard, theological determinism (Puppets on a string, in the Matrix trilogy)
Everything in Christianity, is ideas in the mind of God . No matter. Never mind. (i.e. Mary Baker Eddy and Bishop Berkeley)
The earth is flat (see youtu.be/VNqNnUJVcVs)
Etc.

But it doesn’t make it true. :laughing:

Origen said it WAS a matter of motivation, not time. And that’s fine with me. My point was and is, that a difficult problem, one puzzled over for hundreds/thousands of years, cannot be cleared up with no effort or a link to a site that takes 20 seconds to read ‘the answer’ - those sites have their uses, but not for giving pre-packaged answers to issues that need to be thought out.

If we want answers, if we really believe that an issue is important, we have to put in some time thinking the problem through, and reading the best case that can be presented. Which I did imo.

But onward and upward!

Someone sounds very busy. What’s the secret? Coffee or Chinese green tea?

Motivation is relative. If you’re highly motivated to do certain things, will you do other things instead that are of little motivation, interest or low priority?

What motivation is there to post in this thread? Does anyone here actually think they’re going to convince the others?

There’s usually someone who can present a better argument.

1 Corinthians 3:19
For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God’s sight. As it is written: “He catches the wise in their craftiness.”

Definitely tea. But I’m usually at a quandary - between Jasmine, Indian Chai, Earl Grey or Oolong

Which raises two questions:

Who determines what is the better argument?
And what is the criteria?

Which gives justification, for the Holy Fools tradtion. :laughing:

LLC, I fully agree with you that we are responsible for our own sin. However, I fail to see why you think that fact is not consistent with what I wrote.

I wrote, “It is my view that each of Adam’s descendants has inherited from Adam and Eve a nature that has a tendency to sin (or do wrong)…”

Why do you think we cannot have inherited a TENDENCY to sin, and yet be responsible for our own sinful choices?

There is a growing body of scientific evidence that alcoholism has a genetic component.The tendency to drink to excess may be inherited:
verywell.com/alcoholism-is-it-inherited-63171

Does that mean for you that alcoholics who have inherited a tendency toward alcoholism are not responsible if they become alcoholics?

I’m inclined to think if we’ve “inherited” anything it is a tendency to sin OR to good, i.e., we are genetically wired to ‘choice’. The bible often points to the consequences of either.

“Outside of Pelagianism, most orthodox Christianity believe that the Spirit must work in a person before they believe.”

christianforums.com/threads … 81/page-26

Did you crucify Christ:

christianforums.com/threads … t.8032513/