The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Can a Non-Believer Live a Moral Life?

Read the Channing piece. It has the answers.

Here ya go qaz. The first 5 paragraphs can be ignored - the paragraph beginning “To return: the principal argument…” is where the meat of the essay begins.

wizduum.net/book/moral-argum … inism-1809

The word “depravity” is not mentioned at all in the posted material. The word “depraved” just one time:

" It is plain, that, were a human parent to form himself on the Universal Father, as
described by Calvinism, that is, were he to bring his children into life
totally depraved, and then to pursue them with endless punishment, we should
charge him with a cruelty not surpassed in the annals of the world"

Which is not an objection to depravity but to endless punishment, not applicable to those who support Calvinistic-Universalism.

The entire argument is right there, Origen. The word ‘depraved’ does not make the argument or break it - it is the argument itself. Surely you can see that? Thousands before you have understood it very well.

You’re welcome qaz. :smiley:

I like this:pantelism.com/redemption/fulfilledgrace.html

I’ve read several parts of it. I saw nothing related to any argument against depravity. I’ve already debunked in detail a lengthy 3 argument article against depravity that no one here has addressed. Does this guy have anything new to add? Maybe someone who’s read it can sum it up briefly, as this guy seems awfully long winded.

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Don’t hold your breath Dave, this old maxim still rings true…

I keep forgetting that, dang it. Okay - breathing… :smiley:

Do these people even read the Bible? There are many who had fellowship with God, for example, Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Elijah, Job, Samson, Samuel, David, Solomon, Moses etc. etc. The list goes on and on.

This is basically denying the Spirit of God that speaks to our hearts and minds. As I mentioned previously, such words came from the mouth of a serpent even before the fall. " God told you this? Really?" One thing is true, that after Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit, it did affect their conscience. They were both ashamed of what they’d done and it changed them for the better because they found out God’s words were true. This is the reason why they left the garden as it says in Matthew 10:36 " He who finds his life will lose it , and he who loses his life for My sake will find it."

How does a list of a few people who had “fellowship with God” relate to, or disprove, the statement [not mine BTW] you are responding to?

I’m quite sure Calvinists read the Bible. They even seem to put more emphasis on that & holy living than Christians in general.

BTW, as regards David, for example, from your list, even after having “fellowship with God” he committed premeditated adultery & murder. This man who is said to be after God’s own heart.

How do those words (not mine) deny that? Do you deny that sin affected a fall in Adam & Eve?

Is the Spirit of God speaking to the hearts & minds of suicide bombers to blow themselves & others into pieces?

Was the Spirit of God speaking to the hearts & minds of those of Noah’s time:

Gen.6:5 The LORD saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time.

Did that include Noah? Who later found grace with God?

Here’s a question, that has been puzzling me. Would the world come to believe in Total Depravity, if the Zombie apocalypse
( see en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zombie_apocalypse) were to occur?

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mcnm7ejPr71rrfrqco1_500.gif

If you’re not interested enough in actually getting answers to read a 15 minute essay, I’m not going to do it for you.
No offense - I don’t think you’ve debunked a thing. I don’t think you have actually thought this through on your own yet. Perhaps I’m wrong. Perhaps yu are sincere, perhaps you are getting off on trolling. I’m not sure.

It is my view that each of Adam’s descendants has inherited from Adam and Eve a nature that has a tendency to sin (or do wrong), but CERTAINLY HAS NOT inherited a nature that is totally depraved and can perform no righteous acts.

Sorry, i’m not feeling motivated to read or address the essay.

Evidently others (yourself included) are not motivated enough to respond to my refutation of the 3 argument article that took me hours to write up & post in this thread.

In chess that’s what you might call a “stalemate”.

In my thinking, though, you’ve been checkmated, mate! :smiley:

Of course you do.
I see now where you are coming from, and that actually I’m wasting my time with you.

“Fallen, that’s the way we all begin” [4’ minute song]:

youtube.com/watch?v=shANsSX … _a6aMB_wyc

There seems to be 5 main views about salvation and what it means.

  1. **Inclusivism ** (I think that’s what it’s called)

In this view Jesus’ sacrifice covers everybody automatically. So everyone has been automatically saved as a result. But from what are they saved has not yet been made clear to me. Would God have sent everyone to hell forever, if Christ had not died for us?

  1. Calvinism
    Jesus’ sacrifice covers all the elect. The elect are saved from everlasting torment. The non-elect will have to undergo it.

  2. Fundamentalism
    Jesus sacrifice covers everyone who acknowledges that he is a sinner, and who accepts Christ as his personal Saviour or who believes in the efficacy of His saving grace. Everyone who accepts Christ is positionally righteous and will go to heaven. Everyone else will have to undergo eternal torment.

  3. Works Righteousness
    Do enough good works and avoid evil works and you’ll make it to heaven and avoid hell. Actually, I’ve never met anyone who actually believes this, but those subscribing to Calvinism and Fundamentalism think this view is ubiquitous.

  4. Early Christianity

The purpose of Christ’s sacrifice is to deliver us from sin, and be purified in this life, and be zealous for righteousnes so that we will become fit for the next. This purification is a life-long process. The apostles Paul and Peter expressed this.

  • Peter 2:24 He himself endured our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed.

II Corinthians 5:15 And he died for all, that those who live might live no longer for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

Romans 14:9 For to this end Christ died and lived again, that he might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.

Titus 2:14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all iniquity and to purify for himself a people of his own who are zealous for good deeds.

Heb 9:26 …he has appeared once for all at the end of the age for the abolition of sin by the sacrifice of himself.*

However, if we never enter the door of salvation and undergo this process in the present life, we will need to be corrected in the next life. Out of His LOVE, God will provide exactly what we need to correct us. This may be severe, but never more that we absolutely need. God never acts out of retribution, but only out of LOVE—always.

Inclusivism is best covered in the article at Inclusivist . And not everyone is “automatically saved”. But I am also “hopeful” all are saved, as covered in Purgatorial Conditionalist .