The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Can a Non-Believer Live a Moral Life?

Amongst a list of other requirements for a “moral life” the OP spoke of one who “respects other people rather than feeling superior to them”.

Unless you have God insights, you can’t know that (what their soul is feeling) while observing people’s superficial exterior.

IMO it’s unlikely anyone as described in the OP lives an entire life (say 90 years) up to the very high standard (for an unbeliever) described there, including never once thinking or feeling superior to anyone, no matter how wicked. So, in that sense, even if Total Depravity were a false teaching, my answer to the thread title question is probably “no”.

“We all stumble in many ways.” (James 3:2a)

Isn’t this what the self righteous said about Jesus? He couldn’t possibly be a Son of God, Him being the son of a carpenter. However, Jesus says this: John 10:37-38 “If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe me, but if I do them tough you do not believe Me, believe the works so that you may know and understand that the Father is in me and I in the Father.” John 14:12 “He that believes in Me, the works that I do shall He do also.”
Yes, God works through man as 1 Cor. 12:16 says “There are different ways of working, but the same God works all things in all men.” God is even in sinners and unbelievers.
Ephesians 4:6 “One God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.”

1Cor. 6:19 “Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God.”

Psalm 139:7-8 “Where can I go from Your Spirit? Where can I flee from your presence? If I go up to the heavens, You are there. If I make my bed in the depths, You are there.” Verses 11-12 "If I say “Surely the darkness will hide me and the light become night around me, even the darkness will not be dark to You.”

Exodus20:21 “The people stood far off while Moses drew near to the darkness where God was.”

What absolute unproven and unsubstantiated twaddle! This same writer also has this to say…

HOW does this clown know…these works come from a heart that hates God” — again HOW can he know this and on WHAT basis does he make such a wildly presumptuous and judgemental claim? Unbelievable!

First, a word from our sponsor. :laughing:

Let’s start off with a joke. Like TV evangelist Joel Osteen does - before his TV show commences.

From matthiasmedia.com/briefing/2008/12/the-very-practical-doctrine-of-total-depravity/

:laughing:

And now - for our opening act…A real Zombie, singing the Calvinist TULIP song at youtu.be/sSXiLVsq0cI :laughing:

And another opening act, singing Bad to the Bone at youtu.be/X9bOsdHckhg :laughing:

And now it’s time - for the new hit single. From our feature presentation - the main musical act. Let’s give a big hand to the group, Depraved To The Core. Released from their hit album: Total Depravity - It’s Like That :laughing:

WHAT!!! You think I can find answers in a statement of faith?

How can the act of giving one’ s life to save the life of another be construed to be egoistical in nature? The one who carries out such an act won’t be alive to enjoy anyone’s admiration.

Does every Christian who tries to implement these Bible verses - act out of ego?

Bible Verses About Helping Others

And if so, why does God even want these, included in the Bible?

I agree. Even the mafia man is able show Godly love towards his son as Jesus says in Matthew 7:11"So if you who are evil know how to give good gifts to your children…" The problem is, the mafia guy just doesn’t extend that love to other people.

The mafia guy normally guarantees folks he hires - a job for “life”. Think about it. :laughing:

Those who believe in Total Depravity, both Arminians & Calvinists, base this upon the Bible.

It applies to those who are not saved by Christ, i.e. not born again, not filled with His Spirit, dead in their sins, loving darkness & hating the Light.

They would say it logically & necessarily follows from the Scriptures, some of which have already been posted in this thread.

1 Cor.13:3 And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing.

No wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. (2 Cor.11:14)

No, as stated to you already (& i quote myself):

“I’d be surprised if there were not a number of threads here that have already discussed this topic. Perhaps the search engine would reveal them?
There is certainly tons to be found on google & many websites that answer the questions you’ve asked”

They could be expecting God’s admiration or that of others in the afterlife, as well as thinking of those in this world admiring them. If it isn’t from egotism another ungodly motive or spirit (e.g. demons) may be involved. See 1 Cor.13:1-3; 2 Cor.11:14. Or, for His purposes, God may be interested in saving certain people’s lives, & by His power uses another person to do so, like He used a donkey to speak human words.

Soldiers go to war to die for their country. They may volunteer. If they survive they may be considered heroes. People may praise them for their sacrifice.

Suicide bombers don’t generally live after their bomb goes off. Why do they do it? For the glory of Allah? For the reward in the afterlife? They may think their motives are pure & righteous. But they are deceived. And enemies of God.

Rom.5:6For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. 7For one will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die. 8But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Whether for egoistic or other ungodly motives deep in their heart that they may not even be aware of, this is based on the Scriptures that are used by Arminians to support Total Depravity or the Scriptures understood in favour of TULIP, as given at sites such as:

carm.org/what-is-tulip-in-calvinism

traviscarden.com/total-depravity-verse-list

monergism.com/topics/total-depravity-man

It’s clear Origen your position is skating on thin ice when you seek to now dovetail “Arminians” into your support of TD, which by its very nature is wholly ‘the doctrine’ of Calvin, NOT Arminianism. No one argues with regards to possible degrees of moral degradation, BUT the Calvinist position that you peddle of “totality” is false.

Not only is that false but likewise the impression you seek by sleight of hand to give… those three links above are all Calvinist, NONE Arminian. I’m not defending Arminianism, yet I’ve seen how conveniently vague some of your responses are getting where you seek to spread the load of opaqueness in your answers… as per your nuanced 3rd person “they” when referring to Calvinists, instead of just owning your own Calvinistic opinion. Or the increase in your “they could” or “they might” or “may be” language of the same — IMO, like TD… it’s a farce.

Do you not agree with this quote which i posted on this same forum page the other day:

“…It is important to understand the scope of the “total depravity” of humanity in order to understand the Calvinist-Arminian debate. As noted, both views embrace total depravity; it is a question of the action which they believe God must take to reach humanity in its fallen and depraved state. May God grant to humanity the grace to respond to God’s offer of salvation, so that all may believe (as Arminius taught)? Or must God’s grace be irresistible in order to reach humanity (as Calvin taught), so that it is impossible for anyone to be saved unless God first extends to them His irresistible grace? Stated in this manner, there is no substantial difference in total depravity as embraced by Calvinists and Arminians; both agree that humanity is in a state of depravity which prevents them from responding to God. Rather, the two groups have a different belief in the grace which God extended to humanity in response to total depravity. Calvin taught Irresistible Grace; Arminius taught Prevenient Grace.”

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_depravity

How depraved is fallen man in your estimation? Is it 25%, 50%, 75%? What percentage would you say it is in the Calvi-Arminian view?

Definition of Total Depravity

“Arminians thus wholeheartedly affirm the following definition put forth by Calvinist Charles Ryrie:”

" “BECAUSE of the effects of the fall, that original relationship of fellowship with God was broken and man’s entire nature was polluted. As a result no one can do anything, even good things, that can gain soteriological merit in God’s sight. Therefore, we may concisely define total depravity as the unmeritoriousness of man before God because of the corruption of original sin."

“The concept of total depravity does not mean (1) that depraved people cannot or do not perform actions that are good in either man’s or God’s sight. But no such action can gain favor with God for salvation. Neither does it mean (2) that fallen man has no conscience which judges between good and evil for him. But that conscience has been affected by the fall so that it cannot be a safe and reliable guide. Neither does it mean (3) that people indulge in every form of sin or in any sin to the greatest extent possible.”

"Positively, total depravity means that the corruption has extended to all aspects of man’s nature, to his entire being; and total depravity means that because of that corruption there is nothing man can do to merit saving favor with God.” 14 "

arminiantheologyblog.wordpress. … depravity/

This is a debate between a Catholic & James White re freewill & related topics, e.g. TULIP. The Catholic states that every point of the TULIP, including Total Depravity (or Inability), rests on freewill. These two scholars both know their subject well.

youtube.com/watch?v=LNuChQUsIMU&t=11s

nakedpastor.com/2015/02/the-tot … -theology/

sdmorrison.org/shadow-days-r … depravity/

Well thanks for that clarification… I can categorically state I’m neither Calvinist nor Arminian. Humanity is able to respond to God BY VIRTUE OF Jesus Christ (Jn 14:6b) wherein the grace of God was wrought for all (Jn 1:14b)… IOW Jesus was the means by which humanity has been reconciled to God. Knowledge of and subsequent acknowledgment of by way of confession does NOT create this reality, i.e., it already is.

Confession and faith do not establish it but rather tap into to it in terms of service to God, aka “election” — something Calvin, in particular, erred in by dragging it out of the biblical context linking it to postmortem realities of apparent ‘heaven or hell’ instead of the antemortem reality of SERVICE to God. Some were called into the service of God, most weren’t. Those that were, were so ON BEHALF OF or for the benefit of the whole. That’s the biblical pattern of “the firstfruits” sanctifying the whole — the very thing Jesus and the apostles did ON BEHALF OF Israel (and those gentiles called into that ministry, as per the NT) which in consequence then led to the ultimate reconciling of the rest of the world.

Total Depravity

“It is advocated to various degrees by many Protestant confessions of faith and catechisms, including those of some Lutheran synods,[1][2] and Calvinism.[3][4][5][6] Arminians, such as Methodists, believe and teach total depravity, but with distinct differences.[7][8]”

“…During the Protestant Reformation, the Reformers took Scotus’s position to be the Catholic position and argued that it made sin only a defect or privation of righteousness rather than an inclination toward evil. Martin Luther, John Calvin and other Reformers used the term “total depravity” to articulate what they claimed to be the Augustinian view that sin corrupts the entire human nature.[11] This did not, however, mean the loss of the imago Dei (image of God).”

“…John Calvin used terms like “total depravity” to mean that, despite the ability of people to outwardly uphold the law, there remained an inward distortion which makes all human actions displeasing to God, whether or not they are outwardly good or bad.[12] Even after regeneration, every human action is mixed with evil.[13] Later Calvinist theologians were agreed on this, but the language of the Canons of Dort as well as the 17th-century Reformed theologians which followed it did not repeat the language of “total depravity”, and arguably offer a more moderate view on the state of fallen humanity than Calvin.[12]”

“…Some Reformed theologians have mistakenly used the term “Arminianism” to include some who hold the Semipelagian doctrine of limited depravity, which allows for an “island of righteousness” in human hearts that is uncorrupted by sin and able to accept God’s offer of salvation without a special dispensation of grace.[15]”

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_depravity