The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Can a Non-Believer Live a Moral Life?

Read the Westminster Creed, taking notes as you go, and it becomes clear what the ‘divines’ meant by TD. I use that as my working definition.

The question in the OP is answered easily by empirical means - be around people and watch. The only way to question that clear and distinct experience of people is a plea of special knowledge of some sort - either psychoanalytic theory or misinterpreted (imo) scriptures - and by that of course I mean TD - a theory that, for some, overrides what is plainly observable.

Origen said:

The point you quoted “Just as Adam and Eve were created with the ability to not sin, people retain that essential ability to either sin or not sin,”

How is that not free will?

This writer goes even further than you did:

shapedbytruth-news.blogspot.ca/2012/02/?m=0

And yet there are those who claim to be 4 point Calvinists.

Four-point Calvinism (the official position of Got Questions Ministries):

gotquestions.org/arminianism.html
gotquestions.org/Amyraldism.html

So who’s wrong? The author above, or the 4 pointers?

Good question. I’d like to know the answer, too.

:astonished:

My friend, you seem to be taking on all comers… Tough position to be in, there are many good folks here who have some interesting views And a few Iron clad oppositions… :astonished: Maybe you can at least take what they say and give them a consideration :laughing:

Amongst a list of other requirements for a “moral life” the OP spoke of one who “respects other people rather than feeling superior to them”.

Unless you have God insights, you can’t know that (what their soul is feeling) while observing people’s superficial exterior.

IMO it’s unlikely anyone as described in the OP lives an entire life (say 90 years) up to the very high standard (for an unbeliever) described there, including never once thinking or feeling superior to anyone, no matter how wicked. So, in that sense, even if Total Depravity were a false teaching, my answer to the thread title question is probably “no”.

“We all stumble in many ways.” (James 3:2a)

Isn’t this what the self righteous said about Jesus? He couldn’t possibly be a Son of God, Him being the son of a carpenter. However, Jesus says this: John 10:37-38 “If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe me, but if I do them tough you do not believe Me, believe the works so that you may know and understand that the Father is in me and I in the Father.” John 14:12 “He that believes in Me, the works that I do shall He do also.”
Yes, God works through man as 1 Cor. 12:16 says “There are different ways of working, but the same God works all things in all men.” God is even in sinners and unbelievers.
Ephesians 4:6 “One God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.”

1Cor. 6:19 “Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God.”

Psalm 139:7-8 “Where can I go from Your Spirit? Where can I flee from your presence? If I go up to the heavens, You are there. If I make my bed in the depths, You are there.” Verses 11-12 "If I say “Surely the darkness will hide me and the light become night around me, even the darkness will not be dark to You.”

Exodus20:21 “The people stood far off while Moses drew near to the darkness where God was.”

What absolute unproven and unsubstantiated twaddle! This same writer also has this to say…

HOW does this clown know…these works come from a heart that hates God” — again HOW can he know this and on WHAT basis does he make such a wildly presumptuous and judgemental claim? Unbelievable!

First, a word from our sponsor. :laughing:

Let’s start off with a joke. Like TV evangelist Joel Osteen does - before his TV show commences.

From matthiasmedia.com/briefing/2008/12/the-very-practical-doctrine-of-total-depravity/

:laughing:

And now - for our opening act…A real Zombie, singing the Calvinist TULIP song at youtu.be/sSXiLVsq0cI :laughing:

And another opening act, singing Bad to the Bone at youtu.be/X9bOsdHckhg :laughing:

And now it’s time - for the new hit single. From our feature presentation - the main musical act. Let’s give a big hand to the group, Depraved To The Core. Released from their hit album: Total Depravity - It’s Like That :laughing:

WHAT!!! You think I can find answers in a statement of faith?

How can the act of giving one’ s life to save the life of another be construed to be egoistical in nature? The one who carries out such an act won’t be alive to enjoy anyone’s admiration.

Does every Christian who tries to implement these Bible verses - act out of ego?

Bible Verses About Helping Others

And if so, why does God even want these, included in the Bible?

I agree. Even the mafia man is able show Godly love towards his son as Jesus says in Matthew 7:11"So if you who are evil know how to give good gifts to your children…" The problem is, the mafia guy just doesn’t extend that love to other people.

The mafia guy normally guarantees folks he hires - a job for “life”. Think about it. :laughing:

Those who believe in Total Depravity, both Arminians & Calvinists, base this upon the Bible.

It applies to those who are not saved by Christ, i.e. not born again, not filled with His Spirit, dead in their sins, loving darkness & hating the Light.

They would say it logically & necessarily follows from the Scriptures, some of which have already been posted in this thread.

1 Cor.13:3 And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing.

No wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. (2 Cor.11:14)

No, as stated to you already (& i quote myself):

“I’d be surprised if there were not a number of threads here that have already discussed this topic. Perhaps the search engine would reveal them?
There is certainly tons to be found on google & many websites that answer the questions you’ve asked”

They could be expecting God’s admiration or that of others in the afterlife, as well as thinking of those in this world admiring them. If it isn’t from egotism another ungodly motive or spirit (e.g. demons) may be involved. See 1 Cor.13:1-3; 2 Cor.11:14. Or, for His purposes, God may be interested in saving certain people’s lives, & by His power uses another person to do so, like He used a donkey to speak human words.

Soldiers go to war to die for their country. They may volunteer. If they survive they may be considered heroes. People may praise them for their sacrifice.

Suicide bombers don’t generally live after their bomb goes off. Why do they do it? For the glory of Allah? For the reward in the afterlife? They may think their motives are pure & righteous. But they are deceived. And enemies of God.

Rom.5:6For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. 7For one will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die. 8But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Whether for egoistic or other ungodly motives deep in their heart that they may not even be aware of, this is based on the Scriptures that are used by Arminians to support Total Depravity or the Scriptures understood in favour of TULIP, as given at sites such as:

carm.org/what-is-tulip-in-calvinism

traviscarden.com/total-depravity-verse-list

monergism.com/topics/total-depravity-man

It’s clear Origen your position is skating on thin ice when you seek to now dovetail “Arminians” into your support of TD, which by its very nature is wholly ‘the doctrine’ of Calvin, NOT Arminianism. No one argues with regards to possible degrees of moral degradation, BUT the Calvinist position that you peddle of “totality” is false.

Not only is that false but likewise the impression you seek by sleight of hand to give… those three links above are all Calvinist, NONE Arminian. I’m not defending Arminianism, yet I’ve seen how conveniently vague some of your responses are getting where you seek to spread the load of opaqueness in your answers… as per your nuanced 3rd person “they” when referring to Calvinists, instead of just owning your own Calvinistic opinion. Or the increase in your “they could” or “they might” or “may be” language of the same — IMO, like TD… it’s a farce.

Do you not agree with this quote which i posted on this same forum page the other day:

“…It is important to understand the scope of the “total depravity” of humanity in order to understand the Calvinist-Arminian debate. As noted, both views embrace total depravity; it is a question of the action which they believe God must take to reach humanity in its fallen and depraved state. May God grant to humanity the grace to respond to God’s offer of salvation, so that all may believe (as Arminius taught)? Or must God’s grace be irresistible in order to reach humanity (as Calvin taught), so that it is impossible for anyone to be saved unless God first extends to them His irresistible grace? Stated in this manner, there is no substantial difference in total depravity as embraced by Calvinists and Arminians; both agree that humanity is in a state of depravity which prevents them from responding to God. Rather, the two groups have a different belief in the grace which God extended to humanity in response to total depravity. Calvin taught Irresistible Grace; Arminius taught Prevenient Grace.”

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_depravity

How depraved is fallen man in your estimation? Is it 25%, 50%, 75%? What percentage would you say it is in the Calvi-Arminian view?