The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Can a Non-Believer Live a Moral Life?

You are simply equivocating because you have no rational response… IF the context was about Einstein then “the brain is a computer” scenario would make perfect sense and the LOGIC would be CLEAR that said “the brain is a computer” started and stopped with Einstein. Lesson… Jeremiah’s words were spoken of and applicable TO Israel — therein is the CONTEXT of that verse which you and other Calvinists errantly apply across all and sundry.

IF you weren’t referencing “man’s nature” in general THEN WHY bother to defer to the likes of “the heathen nations”? You just continue to contradict yourself. And given you apparently make no claim against the broader nature of man THEN WHY ignore the context of the text in question which is Israel and NOT “the heathen nations”. IOW… why quote or appeal to Isa 64 at all?

Paidion’s OP made no reference to the likes of being “superficially, pharisaicly, outwardly better than other sinners” — you’re just making this stuff up.

As to your TD link, here’s the first verse quoted…

It’s an assumption on your part that THIS allegedly speaks of total depravity, and this is typical of so much on that page… eisegesis! That said men had… “sought out many schemes” simply means they’d erred, BUT there is NO mention made of some supposed total depravity, i.e., it’s imaginary. The notion of total depravity is totally bogus and nothing but the veneer of self-righteousness.

The likes of ‘total depravity’ is nothing but man-made religiosity. TD only works with the notion that grace is dependent on God alone… YES grace originates and initiates in God, but its attaining is multifaceted, sometimes benevolently given beyond and quite apart from any human response (Lk 6:35) and yet for others a direct endowment initiated by the heart attitude of man (Gen 6:8). It is NOT one size fits all but… “what saith the context?!

Amen to that.

When I try to comprehend total depravity, I also read John Calvin in theology, Arthur Schopenhauer in philosophy (i.e. here’s a short YouTube video on him - youtu.be/q0zmfNx7OM4) and put on some Blues music (i.e. a sample song - youtu.be/1gDhR1R3S0s). It helps to cheer me up. :wink:

And here is an interesting article or 2, I’ve found today:

Three Arguments Against Total Depravity
An Interesting Problem with Calvinism’s doctrine of Total Depravity

Total depravity does not mean man is as depraved as he could be or couldn’t be worse.

What’s the difference between the total depravity of Calvinism & partial depravity taught by others?

Does anyone believe man is not a sinner and not depraved?

It’s not only Calvinists who believe Jeremiah just as it is written. Look up some Catholic, Orthodox, Anglican & other Protestant commentaries.

Your attempt to explain it away with “context” is like what eternal conscious torment advocates do with passages like 1 Cor.15:22, i.e. it’s only about Christians, the context of the letter is to the church, etc, blah, blah, blah.

As i said the point was self-righteousness, not the “nature” of man, let alone total depravity, a topic that hadn’t even been mentioned yet at that point in this thread.

Obviously that’s the type of person he described.

That’s your assumption, not mine. I never said anything about that verse.

I haven’t even stated anywhere in this thread or site that i believe in Total Depravity.

If you want to try to refute Total Depravity you’ll need to deal with the entire body of evidence, not cherry pick.

That was well said, qaz.

What :exclamation: :question: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: how embarrassing :blush: — YOU’RE the one who introduced that whole foolish notion… just do a simple word-search in this thread on “depravity/depraved” proves this. :unamused:

So here’s your chance at an honest answer Origen… do you believe in ‘total depravity:question:

Randy said:

Calvin’s institutes were, (I believe) an incredible (and important) portrayal of a particular view at a particular time. Time moves on.

I appreciate Calvin, though we do not have to agree with everything he suggests :laughing:

So here we are… :wink:

No. They just say this

. To me, it’s basically the same thing, blaming someone else for your sins.

Total depravity means just what it implies, total=entirely, completely, absolutely, just as Warner Barber states “The vengeance of even a child shows us that man does not have any good in him whatsoever.”

My thoughts exactly.

I corrected the typo from my original post.

You recently were a participant in the following thread.

I’d like you to consider crazy-glueing the following quotes to your PC & forehead:

“Are you saying total depravity is inharmonious with Universal Restoration? If so, then i disagree. Likewise 63% who voted in this threads’ poll think Calvinism & Universalism are compatible.”

“I’m undecided whether Calvinistic Universalism or Libertarian freewill (LFW) Universalism is the truth. It’s one or the other. I’d probably lean to the former.”

“I think i would probably accept that TULI or TULIP without the P.”

Looking forward to seeing what imaginary things you’ll read into those quotes, & the erroneous assumptions you’ll conclude from such fantasies. Hopefully you don’t use the same method with the Scriptures, though i’m afraid you do.

Why don’t you start a thread titled “The gospel truth according to davo” or “Davo’s creedal statement according to the Scriptures”? Would it include all prophesy is already fulfilled, Christ has already returned & won’t be coming again, there are no future resurrections, no post mortem punishment, everyone is already saved, even serial killers, so we might as well all go live it up & part-ay!

What would be the relevance of libertarian free will in such a theology? Or evangelism? Or opposing Calvinism?

So here’s your chance at an honest answer Davo ;

So Am I wrong DaveB? :astonished: Send davo my pm :laughing: You guys tell me if I am wrong…

I have to agree with the sentiments of DaveB who sums this up best…

:laughing:

Does anyone believe man is not a sinner and not depraved?
Origen;

Posts: 435
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2016 6:43 pm

Being a sinner doesn’t equate to being depraved IMO. Depraved is a state of being whereas a sinner can be someone who occasionally sins which would include everyone except one.
My understanding of the Calvinist idea of total depravity is that man is incapable of looking for God without God first regenerating him. Man can pursue many things greater then himself like patriotism to country, supporting various causes, supporting sports teams, so why couldn’t he pursue the greatest cause of all which is God?

"In Roman Catholic theology

“No one can say ‘Jesus is Lord’ except by the Holy Spirit. Every time we begin to pray to Jesus it is the Holy Spirit who draws us on the way of prayer by his prevenient grace.”[10]

"The Second Council of Orange of 529 stated that faith, though a free act, resulted even in its beginnings from the grace of God, enlightening the human mind and enabling belief.[11] In canon 23 it is said that God prepares our wills that they may desire the good. Canon 25 states, "In every good work, it is not we who begin… but He (God) first inspires us with faith and love of Him, through no preceding merit on our part.”[12]

“Prevenient grace (from the Latin “to come before”) was discussed in the fifth chapter of the sixth session of the Council of Trent (1545-1563) which used the phrase: “a Dei per dominum Christum Iesum praeveniente gratia” (rendered “a predisposing grace of God through Jesus Christ”).[13] Those who turned from God by sins are disposed by God’s grace to turn back and become justified by freely assenting to that grace.”

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prevenien … c_theology

I’m no authority on Calvinism, & they often seem reluctant to share what they believe, but according to the following:

“Calvinists have their own doctrine of prevenient grace, which they identify with the act of regeneration and which is immediately and necessarily followed by faith.[14]”

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prevenien … c_theology

"When Orthodox Christians refer to Fallen Nature they are not saying that human nature has become evil in itself. Human nature is still formed in the image of God; we are still God’s creation, and God has never created anything evil. But our fallen nature remains open to evil intents and actions. It is sometimes said that we are “inclined to sin”; that is, we find some sinful things attractive. It is the nature of temptation to make sinful things seem the more attractive, and it is the fallen nature of humans that seeks or succumbs to the attraction. Orthodox Christians reject the Augustinian position that the descendants of Adam and Eve are actually guilty of the original sin of their ancestors.[97] But just as any species begets its own kind, so fallen humans beget fallen humans, and from the beginning of our existence we lie open to sinning by our own choice.

Since the fall of man, then, it has been mankind’s dilemma that no human can restore his nature to union with God’s grace; it was necessary for God to effect another change in human nature."

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Orthodox_Church

Suffice it to say, man is made of more than just flesh and blood, as Genesis 2:7 states "“And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.” I believe that the Spirit of God is in the core of every human being, and whether we like it or not, we cannot be rid of Him.

I did introduce an interesting article or 2, earlier in this thread:

Three Arguments Against Total Depravity
An Interesting Problem with Calvinism’s doctrine of Total Depravity

I do understand total depravity, as the Calvinist sites - Got Questions and CARM - present it. I just don’t agree with it.

Perhaps this video, can answer your question - in 15 seconds: youtu.be/WrjwaqZfjIY. :laughing:

Excellent — straightforward — rational. :sunglasses:

I was raised with the theology that if it wasn’t God’s will to give a poor starving child some food, then it was is evil and sinful. Of course, I wish I was smart enough at the time to say “How would it NOT be God’s will to do something like that?” Crazy, I tell you.