The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Facts to be Considered by All Full Preterists

Luckily, the Calvinist site, Got Questions - has an answer at: :smiley:

What are the times of the Gentiles?

As far as I see the Old Covenant ended on the cross when Jesus sacrifice initiated the New Covenant. This temple destroyed in 70AD was not a Holy God ordained place of worship, it was Herod’s temple used by Rabbinical Judaism.

The Hebraist wrote that the Old Covenant would be ending soon. His epistle was written years after the cross.

Actually in Hebrews 8.13 the writer (probably Paul) said the Old Covenant was obsolete and fading away. It either is effective or it’s not and i take obsolete as obsolete and i take fading away as perhaps an allusion to the destruction of the temple.

In the sky appeared a vision of armies in conflict, of glittering armour. A sudden lightning flash from the clouds lit up the Temple. The doors of the holy place abruptly opened, a superhuman voice was heard to declare that the gods were leaving it, and in the same instant came the rushing tumult of their departure.

-Tacitus

For before the setting of the sun chariots and armed troops were seen throughout the whole region in mid-air, wheeling through the clouds and encircling the cities

It sounds like Angelic activity but i thought you didn’t believe in Angels? At any rate “coming in the clouds” is a phrase used in the OT to describe God ordained destruction of a nation and that may be what this activity foretold.

What do you think the “times of the gentiles” is?
qaz

Posts: 1757
Joined: Sat Oct 17, 2015 10:51 am

According to Ellis Skolfield it is the times the Jews could no longer perform their own temple sacrifices 533BC until 1967 when Israel regained control of all of Jerusalem and the Temple and it was 2,500 years or time,times and half a times based on a day for a year.
Skolfield believes we are now in the time of the end from Daniel 12.9

Fading away = ending soon. You merely rephrased what I wrote.
qaz

Posts: 1759
Joined: Sat Oct 17, 2015 10:51 am

I emphasized obsolete and I think obsolete=obsolete, so I did not rephrase what you wrote.

That’s more plausible to me than the idea that beings with non-earthly origins who normally exist outside the universe made a cameo into the time-space continuum.

How would you know where beings with non-earthly origins normally exist? BTW Jesus called these beings Angels numerous times, why would he do that if Angels don’t exist?

Ask yourself this… how many eyes actually witnessed Christ’s crucifixion but had absolutely NO CLUE as to what they were beholding in that very physical event and the redemptive reality that more importantly lay behind what they saw?

THAT very thing Steve IS indeed what Christ’s parousia was all about… and all that then consequently flowed from that, as per:

judge = Judgement
living and dead = Resurrection
appearing = Coming
kingdom = Authority/rule

steve7150 wrote:
At any rate “coming in the clouds” is a phrase used in the OT to describe God ordained destruction of a nation and that may be what this activity foretold.

THAT very thing Steve IS indeed what Christ’s parousia was all about… and all that then consequently flowed from that, as per:
2Tim 4:1 I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and Christ Jesus, who is about to judge the living and the dead, and by his appearing and by his kingdom.

judge = Judgement
living and dead = Resurrection
appearing = Coming
kingdom = Authority/rule

I understand God judged Jerusalem , no argument about that but the issue is whether a judgment of Jerusalem/Temple equates to Christ’s second coming which to me sounds like a world event.
Also my bible says “who is to judge the living and dead”, without the word “about” , It also continues with “preach the word” which has continued throughout the church age & not just 70AD.

As to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we beg you, brothers and sisters, not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as though from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord is already here.

Weren’t the Christians scattered not gathered at Jerusalem 70AD?

It sounds like that BECAUSE that’s what you’ve been taught. It was “a world event” FOR THEM, i.e., THEIR old covenant world was coming down. What had been made “obsolete” by the Cross (regardless that it still functioned at a cultural level) and having grown old was READY to vanish away — Heb 8:13.

About to” is the CORRECT rendering in that verse. The word typically given as “will” or “is to” is the Greek word <μέλλω> mellō = “about to” or “ready to” as per…

There are oddles more examples of this.

As it should… the message of reconciliation brings freedom — just because it is complete doesn’t negate it… in fact quite the opposite, it empowers it because it is real and NOT still waiting to occur.

Yes, Paul used a form of “μελλω” in 2 Timothy 4:1. And yyes, that word often means “about to” or to be on the point of doing something. But the word ALSO means “to INTEND to” do something.

Peter who also wrote of God judging the living and the dead (1 Peter 4:5), did not use “μελλω.” He used “ετοιμως,” a word that means “ready.”

Consider the following passage:

Was Jesus addressing the all the people who were alive at that time as a faithless and perverse generation? Or was He addressing His own people—the Jewish people?

Peter who also wrote of God judging the living and the dead (1 Peter 4:5), did not use “μελλω.” He used “ετοιμως,” a word that means “ready.”” YES and… :question:

THIS just confirms there are two words or witnesses showing the IMMEDIACY of their expectation… as per what Jesus said was on THEIR horizon. THIS further establishes the point already made and made elsewhere…

More evidence!!

My agreement doesn’t alter at all the facts I’ve established… you have to consider the benefit of placation to where a minor nuance isn’t a threat to the main point having already been made. :smiley:

No, it doesn’t, davey. As Paidon already pointed out & you willfully ignored:

“Paul used a form of “μελλω” in 2 Timothy 4:1. And yes, that word often means “about to” or to be on the point of doing something. But the word ALSO means “to INTEND to” do something.”

Did you get that. Here it is again, in case you missed it the first two times: “But the word ALSO means “to INTEND to” do something.” "

Moreover, even in the Pantelistic/FP heresies’ interpretations MELLO must refer to a period of - at least - 40 years in the Scriptures (e.g. Mt.16:27). Well, if a time 40 years later means “about to” occur, then why not extend it to 200 or 2000 years.

Your argument from the word MELLO is thus shown to be refuted in multiple ways.

But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. (2 Pet.3:8)

How long do you suppose MELLO was in these passages:

By faith Abraham, being called, did obey, to go forth to the place that he was about to receive for an inheritance, and he went forth, not knowing whither he doth go; (Heb.11:8, YLT)

‘Having obtained, therefore, help from God, till this day, I have stood witnessing both to small and to great, saying nothing besides the things that both the prophets and Moses spake of as about to come, that the Christ is to suffer, whether first by a rising from the dead, he is about to proclaim light to the people and to the nations.’ (Acts 26:22-23, YLT)

Perhaps we need a song?..To clarify the Preterist use of Mello? :laughing:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFulrXLSZjE[/youtube]

:laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

It confirms nothing.

A ten year old may be “ready” to die. That doesn’t mean it’s going to happen imminently. It may not occur for another 10 decades.

God has been “ready” to judge humanity since before Adam even existed.

Perhaps you should consider that you’re reading your theology into the Bible, rather than letting Scripture form your theology.

Is that right :unamused:

In-kind with your own theology… you should maybe dog-paddle back to the shallow end. :sunglasses: