The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Church of England Articles allowed Universalism in 1563

Again, interesting that your mind should think in those terms. Chocolate.
Nothing I’ve said implies that my conduct is any better than yours, quite the reverse. What I actually said is that I think we are very similar and share many faults.

Most undoubtedly true and I think that such exchanges are, at times, warranted and though painful, can produce good fruit if we allow.
My opinion is that there is very little correlation between what people espouse to believe and how they act. I’ve met some atheists whose moral walk I can only admire. Pray God if I think hard enough I might even be able to recall some Calvinists. :wink:
Please feel free to have the last word, I’ll leave this thread to the scholars now that its back on course. May God bless your investigations and may the party continue.

Or, maybe it has been reinstated into Article 8 again since 1801? (RevDrew seems to think not…?)

So you are saying it is compulsory to believe that, in order to be saved, the most important thing is to consistently hold that wide set of doctrines without deviating from it?

Because I see less than no evidence for that notion (of salvation being primarily earned or achieved by doctrinal assent) in the Articles, or in any other Anglican and/or Calvinistic creedal statement, so far; and plenty of things against it.

If on the other hand you say you (absolutely? somewhat? hesitantly?) do not believe that the most important factor in salvation is to hold a doctrinal set correctly (much moreso a numerously detailed one), or at least acknolwedge that it is not compulsory to believe in salvation by doctrinal assent, then I am hardly the only one between us breaking down the text of the Creed into compulsory and non-compulsory parts (much moreso outright disagreeing with an important and blatant content of the text).

Sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander in this case. If you insist on holding to all the text of the Creed, then I will also insist you hold to all the text of the Creed. But is that true?–do you actually believe first and foremost in salvation by doctrinal assent?

If so, then you have some ground for complaining that I am picking some doctrines from the Creed to believe (such as the two large halves on trinitarian and Incarnational doctrine) and not picking (for various reasons I have spelled out in detail elsewhere) some others (such as the salvific priority of holding doctrines in order to attain my salvation.)

If not–if you actually agree with me that salvation does not depend first and foremost on our assenting and holding to a set of doctrine–then you cannot coherently complain merely that I am rejecting the material (even if you don’t want to call it wrapping statements, although their topical unity with each other compared to the rest of the material is excessively clear) before and between the two main halves: since that is what that material is definitely and decisively about.

(And also about non-universalism, as it happens. But a non-universalist could reject those wrapping statements on the same ground I do–because they’re the gnostic heresy imported into and around two statements of orthodox theology!–while still remaining non-universalistic.)

Hello Rev. Drew

(This is my first time on this forum). I’ve had a look your posts in this thread and they jogged my memory. Your thought that universalism was left an open question for Anglicans when the 42nd article was not restored in The Elizabethan Prayer Book are corroborated by M.A. Screech, the very eminent scholar of the Renaissance, in his *Laughter at the Foot of the Cross *( Penguin Books, London, 1997 p.p. 313-14). The footnotes to his discussion reference Evan Daniel, * The Prayer-Book: It’s History, Language and Contents , twenty first edition, 1905, pp. 552-3; Frederick Farrar, * Eternal Hope. Five Sermons preached in Westminster Abbey, November and December, 1877, London, 1878; 1892, p. 85; and D.P. Walker, * The Decline of Hell *, London, 1964, p.38.
I dunno - there may be some useful leads here for your research.

I also remember reading somewhere that the Comfortable Words of the Burial Service in The Book Of Common Prayer were included at the express command of Queen Elizabeth who found the Calvinist Doctrine of reprobation loathsome. This certainly suggests she subscribed to ’ a wideness in God’s mercy’ if not to Universal Reconciliation.

good wishes and blessings

Hi Sobornost and welcome to the forum! I thought I just might be onto something significant here and it is good to have some corroboration from the academic world. I will try to buy or borrow a copy of the Screech book you mention. I am interested in learning more about QE1’s influence over the prayer book and her relationship with Matthew Parker; very intriguing…
Funnily enough I bought a copy of Dean Farrar’s “Eternal Hope” sermons just recently, prompted by a conversation with one of our Bible study leaders here who had been shocked to learn of his hero Farrar’s universalist convictions (this was one of many “own-goals” scored by the writers of “Hell under Fire” eds CW Morgan and RA Peterson).
I look forward to getting to know you and enjoying further conversations! Will you be introducing yourself over in the “Introductions” section?
Cheers, Drew

i’ve sent a message on facebook to a vicar i know asking about this, in particular the removal of the Athanasian Creed in 1801…
it’d be a bit odd if the UK and Europe CoE recognised its removal, but the Tasmanian CoE didn’t…

Previously Luke noted that though article 42 was left out, UR would have been assumed excluded based on Article 8’s endorsement of the Athanasian Creed. The following is what the Athanasian Creed affirms concerning judgment:

“For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man; so God and Man is one Christ; Who suffered for our salvation; descended into hell; rose again the third day from the dead. He ascended into heaven, he sitteth on the right hand of the God the Father Almighty, from whence he will come to judge the quick and the dead. At whose coming all men will rise again with their bodies; And shall give account for their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting; and they that have done evil, into everlasting fire. This is the Catholic Faith; which except a man believe truly and firmly, he cannot be saved.”

1st, note that it affirms that salvation is based on Works, which most of Christendom rejects today and instead affirms that salvation is by grace.
2nd note that it affirms “everlasting fire”, it doesn’t affirm ECT, though many would read such into that. Most UR’s affirm “everlasting fire” and recognize that evil works will be burnt up.

Oops, reviewing it again I noticed that at the first he states that “without doubt he shall perish everlastingly”. But the context is affirming the Trinity. He is saying that if one does not believe in the Trinity then one shall surely perish everlatingly; the point being that the Trinity is for him the doctrinal dividing line between those he accepts as brothers and those he does not accept as brothers. So though someone loves God and loves people, has faith in Jesus and is a follower of Him, that is not enough, but one must understand the Trinity the way he does else he shall “perish everlastingly”.

Frankly, I don’t believe that, nor do I see such affirmed in scripture. A person’s trust can certainly be in Jesus without assuming to understand clearly Jesus’ relationship to the Father. And from an experiential perspective, I know men and women in whom I recognize the Spirit of God, people who passionately love God and love people, people who are devoted followers of Jesus, people from all ends of the spectrum concerning Trinity, Oneness, Binitarians, etc. And I figure, if God accepts them, who am I to reject them and to not call them my brother.

In fact, considering I believe in the brotherhood of humanity and the Fatherhood of God as being Father of everyone whether we realize it or not, I see people and value them as my brothers and sisters though they do not yet know OUR Father! When I pray OUR Father, I mean see that as including all humanity, not just some.

Anyhow, back on point, I don’t see the Athanasian Creed as affirming belief in ECT as being necessary for salvation, much less for fellowship. And I disagree with his affirmation that understanding the nature of God as being Trinity is necessary either!

Hi Drew – I’ve done an introduction for myself as you suggested, inspired by your warm welcome. Yes I really do think you are on to something here and I too will try to find out something about Matthew Parker when I can. An old friend who I hope to see over Christmas may have some useful ideas.

The book by Screech – who is/was also an Anglican Priest – is primarily about different views of laughter in the Christian tradition, focussing on the Renaissance. It has a general relevance – but the only bits that are specifically relevant are the couple of pages I cited in my first post. Would you like me to type them up for you and place them on the board? (Might save you the trouble of getting the book, and might be of general interest)

Hi Dick,
Thanks for the offer, that would be very kind and helpful. It would also save me from being told off by my lovely wife for buying yet another theology/church history book.
Cheers, Drew

Hi Drew -

Well I have a renewed pupose in life now, in preventing the ire of your lovely wife! :slight_smile: Will type it up over the weekend.

All the best

Dick

Yes, Rev Drew, you can change the title. Just go to your original post in this thread and click on “edit”. Your first post plus the thread title show up in a form which allows editing.

Hi Drew –

I post this quotation from Screech’s books to show that ‘great minds think alike’ and that you have support for your hypothesis about the suppression of the 42nd article from an eminent authority. If anyone wants to check the academic credentials of The Rev Prof Michael Andrew Screech here is the link (he is very distinguished in his field) -
debretts.com/people/biograph … ndrew.aspx

Here is the quotation -

‘Some think of the Christian revelation as above all a deposit dutifully guarded by an infallible man, institution, or church. Others see the revelation of the fullness of Christ’s truth as primarily a winding road, leading members of a fallible church – however fitfully – towards a deepening understanding of divine truth, justice and mercy. Christian truth may be at any time revealed – in his own way and in his own choosing – by the risen Christ. Christ is the Logos, the Living Word, the very idea of right-reason. He approaches man and addresses him in ways he can understand. It may all seem very mundane. The Logos does not smother the personality of those whom he chooses to address, but he does expect to elicit a response. One response has been a quiet rejection – despite Fathers and Councils and encyclicals and synods – of the notion of a celestial Belsen where wretches suffer infinite and everlasting torment, partly in order to add to the joy of the elect. When in 1553 the church under Edward VI drew up the Forty-two Articles, the forty second read: All men shall not be saved at length. Edward died almost at once and those articles were immediately abrogated under Queen Mary. The forty second was never restored under Elizabeth. So the church left the universalism of Origen an open question. Origen (the favourite theologian of Erasmus) held that, in the end, all rational creatures will be saved: all mankind, and even all devils. The Church, by never restoring Edward’s forty second article, leaves the door of God’s redeeming power wide open: all of us may be eventually saved. If so there will be no human beings left in hell to laugh at…’ (Laughter at the foot of the Cross – p.313)

Drew –in the light of this I reckon that along with the Bucer connection, an Erasmus connection is also well worth considering – I’ve had a number of thoughts about this. I will post later so as not to overload things now.

Finally –( to all) I have no intention of giving offence to anyone by reproducing this passage from Screech. Aware that a broad Church of Christians uses this site I think I should make a couple of points about background context -

  1. However it may seem, Screech’s point about the ‘celestial Belsen’ and the joy and the laughter felt by the elect at the torments of the damned is not a low jibe aimed at believers in ETC (especially not at those who see ECT as the tragic but necessary outcome, for some, of the gift of freewill). Rather Screech is referring to the tradition of righteous gloating that one of the supreme joys of the elect in Paradise will be the privilege of a sort of ringside view of the torture of damned whom they can laugh to scorn as Elijah did the Priests of Baal. (This is first found - I think - in the writings of Tertullian and repeated by many of the medieval Doctors of the Church and the Reformers. I note in mitigation of Tertullian that he suffered cruelly under Pagan persecution and lost loved ones – then, so did Origen who was Tertullian’s near contemporary; but Origen had a merciful imagination).

  2. I’m not sure how much Screech’s view of ‘continuous revelation’ will appeal to some people on this site, although I have no problem with it. For example I do think that belief in ECT today means something very different than it did for Tertullian and his successors. I would argue that the Christian Revelation can be seen – at least in one important sense – as being clarified by the historical process. At the time when the prospects of scoffing at the damned seemed unexceptional, people were used to watching punishments meted out to condemned criminals. Heretics and traitors/rebels against the sovereign majesty of Christian princes were punished in symbolic spectacle with exceptional cruelty (as the Roman pagans had done before in the arena). These punishments were designed to be a first instalment of damnation to dispirit the condemned. However, one of the fruits of the Christian tradition at its best has been that some Christians have seen in the faces of the condemned –whether guilty or innocent – the face of their Lord, cruelly tortured in front of a baying mob. A good example is Father Friedrich von Spee of Wurzburg who spoke out against the witch hunts for this reason when they were at their height. He was very influential in changing hearts and minds about the persecution. The Christian dynamic of which Spee is representative has been a major factor in the gradual – but far from complete – rejection of torture and cruel and unusual punishments, at least in principle (principle tragically lags behind fact ). This, I think, has changed forever the imaginative scope for picturing ECT in good conscience; hence those that believe in ECT these days often think in terms of separation from God and isolation in self will instead of in terms of torture – which is all to the good in my view.

Peace to All –

Dick

Dick, Thanks for your post which is extremely helpful and encouraging. Perhaps some of the voices from church history which have been tragically neglected will be heard afresh as a result of this present move of the Holy Spirit.I look forward to your next instalment with great anticipation! Drew

Thanks Drew - so glad the post was helpful. I’ll do the next post a.s.a.p. (but I’ve got hard boiled eyes at the moment - have done quite a lot on the computer recently). What I’ll do is I’ll write something about what I see as the scope of the issues relevant to this enquiry. Then you can tell me what you’d like to hear more about and about your own ideas. I’ll have to flesh out details in later posts to make everything comprehensible to anybody following the thread (I mustn’t assume specialist knowledge). We can do this gradually; it should be both useful and good fun.

On a light note – in researches on Matthew Parker done since our first correspondence I have heard that the origin of the phrase ‘nosey Parker’ has been linked to the great man. For instance -

*The most usual origin of the phrase suggested is the late (the very late) Matthew Parker, Archbishop of Canterbury in the reign of Elizabeth I in the sixteenth century. He was a reforming cleric, noted for sending out detailed enquiries and instructions relating to the conduct of his diocese. Like many reformers, he was regarded as a busybody - (alternatively others suggest that since he was regarded as an assiduous scholar of the History of the English Church – the nosy referred to a sort of academic inquisitiveness).

However, the huge flaw in this suggestion is that the term nosey Parker isn’t recorded until 1907. The term ‘nosey’ for someone inquisitive, figuratively always sticking their nose into other people’s affairs, is a little older, but even that only dates back to the 1880s. Before then, anyone called nosey was just somebody with a big nose, like the Duke of Wellington, who had the nickname Old Nosey.*

Shame it doesn’t appear to be true – I rather tickled by the suggestion.

All good wishes

Dick

OK Drew – here we go

First I should say that I am not a bona fide academic with research credentials to my name. I’m a sort of’ jack of all trades, master of none’ Arts/Humanities teacher who has worked in Higher Education (although I currently work in Community Education). I do have a good knowledge of secondary sources relating to this issue – hence you sparked my interest - and I know the rules of the game about sifting evidence and exercising due caution (I hope). So I think I can start the ball rolling about your fascinating hypothesis. I need to do a few posts over several weeks – between one and two a week to cover the ground that I see as relevant, and not overload things.

I will endeavour to provide enough background detail to include everyone in the discussion. I will try not to be stodgy or long winded. Always get back to me to add to or question anything I have said. In the end to really clarify issues we will need the help of an expert in the field. Perhaps we could eventually contact Morwena Ludlow via Robin Parry? But here goes (any experts in field reading this –please feel free to wade in).

At the moment, my view of the abrogation of the forty second article is that although the original intention and context was not to open the door for UR (see below) – the logic of the abrogation along with other elements of the Elizabethan Settlement has in fact opened the door.

To talk this through I suggest writing the following posts:

A post about the ‘Elizabethan Settlement and how the 39 Articles, rather than being statements of orthodox purity to exclude people can best be seen in their original context as statements of compromise to encourage Christians of different persuasions to worship together in one Church and thus prevent the country from descending into sectarianism and religious war.

A post about the influence of the Dutch scholar Erasmus on all of the stages of the English Reformation – and particularly on the Elizabethan Settlement -with his emphasis on striving for peace and church unity(compromise) and his scepticism about the ability of fallible human beings to arrive at clear knowledge about ‘ultimate things’/eschatology. I will include a note about Erasmus’ love of Origen (which I believe is rooted in other factors than Origen’s speculation about ‘ultimate things’). I will also include a note about Matthew Parker as a Christian Humanist scholar in the mould of Erasmus.

A post about what I see currently as the real concern of the Elizabethan Reformers in abrogating the 42nd article. That is - a concern about an epidemic of religious despair produced by the crude Calvinism of some English Puritans. The contrary danger of the religious presumption of salvation was obviously a minor issue at the time compared with the Calvinist threat; the Family of Love, and the Grindletonians – sects among the common people - who taught disbelief in Hell – must have seemed inconsequential (however, see next).

A post about the little I know of Elizabeth’s influence on the Prayer Book and her personal religiosity. I do note that for all of her insistence on giving religious comfort to her people in 1585 she felt it necessary to denounce those who said ‘there was no hell but a torment of conscience’ in Parliament.

A post about the Service for the Burial of the Dead in the Book of Common Prayer. Part of Elizabethan compromise was to include words about predestination alongside words of comforting assurance for all in this service. The reason for this was the need to compromise – and Puritan divines did not like this instance of compromise one jot. However, the unintentional logic behind incorporating passages about both election and wide assurance in this service is one of UR. Likewise Richard Hooker, the theorist of the Elizabethan Settlement ,although I’m sure not a universalist as such, wrote many passage of rich comfort for those tempted to despair and showed such a wide charity about whom he hoped might be saved that his logic again, in my view, tends creating a climate in which belief UR becomes an acceptable option.

A post about Geroge Rust, the first prominent Anglican Universalists – Bishop of Dromore in Ireland -inspired by the Cambridge Platonists (who were in turn inspired by both Erasmus and Origen). I can, if you wish, include a note about the Athanasian Creed with this – if the indeed the Athanasian Creed had acted as a barrier to Anglican universalism, by the latter half of the seventeenth century its authority and status had taken a dent. Christian Humanist scholarship had demonstrated conclusively that it was not written by Athanasius (the real Athanasius was a supporter of Origen), it was not originally written in Greek but in Latin, and that it dates from at least 100 years after its ascribed date.

Let me know what you think of my proposal – and we’ll take it slowly.

All good wishes

Dick

Hope the previous post wasn’t too overwhelming. I think historical evidence and context is important here - the discussion thus far has been more abstract doctrinal rather than historical - and I was trying to break things down into subject areas I see as important, so I could give each some careful thought to each with the help of your feedback and input.

I don’t yet have a settled view on your question - but I do believe the Spirit can/has used fallible human beings - with their compromises and expediency -as well as clear sighted ‘Merciful Doctors’ of the Church to reveal to us the Greater Hope in its fullness. And it is very striking that the suppression of article 42 actually does open the door for universalism.

With history we just need to sort out what is impossible from what is possible, what is probable, and what is certain given the evidence we have regarding your question. And we need a view on what questions to ask the ‘experts’.

If it would be better to correspond through private message on this forum and post findings later, that’s good by me too.

Blessings :smiley:

Hi Dick,

Your proposal seems an extremely sensible way of going about things and, judging by the numbers viewing this thread to date, I’d say it is worth keeping open for everybody to listen in and contribute, rather than corresponding privately. Do you think it would be best to keep the whole thing on this thread or run a different thread for each of your topics?

Looking forward to getting deeper into this topic. Thanks for taking the initiative.

Cheers, Drew

HI Drew -

That’s good. I see now from the number of views of this thread that it has indeed been a ‘hot topic’ since you started it. I don’t know what to say about starting separate threads - let’s keep it on here for the moment as my first post will be about the articles and the Elizabethan Settlement - and I’ll post it sometime mid-week. Promise to be careful and cautious (I was already jumping the gun a bit in my notes to the proposals)

All the best

Dick

Hi Drew –

Greetings for Advent. :slight_smile:

On reflection I feel unhappy that I’ve suggested relegating the question of the ‘damnatory clauses’ of the Athanasian Creed to a footnote at the end of a process (it seems very arrogant of me). Discussion about this has taken up a lot of this thread to date so I think I should give some pointers/outline some resources for weighing the historical context now (and then go on to tackle the Elizabethan Settlement etc.). Have almost finished my notes on this – which I hope clarify some issues that have already been debated here. Will post on Saturday.

I reckon it would be good for you to begin a separate thread on ‘The Athanasian Creed – the damnatory clauses and UR’ - as you’ve suggested for our sub-topics . This is an important issue not only to Anglican Universalists but also to all Orthodox Trinitarian Christian Universalists (and to Unitarian Universalists – possibly for slightly different reasons). I can place my post on the new thread and then leave the discussion for others to get on with. I guess the discussion could branch out into a consideration of how Trinitarian Christians from other traditions/denominations deal with the damnatory clauses.

By the way, here is a website I found that supports your ‘abrogation hypothesis’ - sounds impressive :wink:

british-history.ac.uk/report … mpid=56264

Whatever we finally decide it is beginning to seem to me absolutely incredible that the 42nd Article was abrogated given the times/circumstances – and I can well understand if anyone wants to see this as providential.

All the best

Dick

This sounds like a pretty cool discussion. :slight_smile:

Hi Dick,

I have started a new thread for the Athanasian Creed discussion. For your information, any member can start new threads just by going to the relevant section on the Board Index and clicking “new topic”.

this looks interesting.
The document you linked to is

A first group of offenses categorised as heresies and blasphemies carries the death penalty. The list does not include UR as far as I can see:

… the death penalty applies unless the offender recants:

A further list of errors INCLUDING UR as well as belief that people have free will to believe in God, is not described as blasphemy or heresy and carries a lower penalty.

  • Basically the offender just has to recant or go to prison until he agrees to stop preaching this view.

Have I read this right Dick? Is that what you were pointing out? Again it would be interesting to know who was driving this. It was during the Civil War led by Cromwell and co against King Charles I (Roman Catholic).