The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Surprised by the Methodist!

try reading it again, and a bit slower?
was 100% clear to me

Don’t be rude. You aren’t infallible and are capable of being decieved as much as anyone else. Because something is clear to you “don’t mean a thing”. It’s clear to atheists that there is no God.

What do you not understand specifically? To expand upon my points though:

I believe that salvation is the beginning and end of discipleship. On one hand, we do not begin being disciples of Christ and growing in Christ likeness until we are saved. On the other hand scripture affirms that we are to work out our own salvation, becoming more like Christ every day. And from another perspective, our salvation was accomplished in Christ through his sacrifice. And from another perspective we do not fully become like Jesus until we see Him face to face on that day. etc. etc. etc. Salvation is like a diamond with many different facets and hughs.

And concerning the Kingdom of God being both now and not yet, it’s a common means of referencing the very present reality of the Kingdom while all the while reconizing that it is not fully seen/understood/experienced yet by us. The kingdom of God is both a present reality and a future hope for us.

i don’t know how i could’ve been more polite! i just suggest you read it again. i am definitely not infallible, and many many things are unclear to me. but sometimes i reread something and it makes sense.

a) you’ve suggested that we are saying that it’s unimportant for people to be discipled…and that sin is OK and let’s all be happy
b) we’ve said that isn’t the case…but discipleship must come from a place of love…and if someone hasn’t experienced grace, how can they be discipled? you can’t disciple an atheist, for example, until he accepts the grace.

so…where is your problem with what’s been said?
what isn’t clear to me is why you have any issue with what people are telling you? it’s fine to question and debate…but this is getting ludicrous.

corpselight,
I apologize for getting you wrong. Sorry, man. I don’t think that the speed at which I read it will make much difference, as these are issues that I am quite familiar with and I have found much confusion from many angles (so it isn’t such a simple matter that it could be resolved by reading it slower!

I’m not worried about “who is right”- I’m interested in the Truth!

Let’s try to narrow the topics a bit. Here is what I have seen among some Methodists: the message seems to be that God accepts you as you are (to the unbeliever). Perhaps this is true in one sense as Jesus trys to woo the unbeliever into a covenant relationship. But here is what is so often left out (it seems to me that Sherman left it out, but I may have to check again. I only heard one aspect of how Jesus views the unbeliever.

But it is also true that the wrath of God abides on the unbeliever. I mean, that is what Jesus said, right? Seems obvious to me. I won’t ask you to “read more slowly”, just read it for what it says :slight_smile: I know that it is a painful verse, but it needs to be accepted.

Well, Sherman talked explicitly about of Jesus viewing the unbeliever as someone who needs accepting by God first before they can be saved.

And Sherman talked explicitly about Jesus viewing the unbeliever as a sinner who needs repenting of their sins in order to be saved.

That’s two aspects. Which one of those did you hear and not the other?

I’m pretty sure Sherman has elsewhere affirmed that God punishes impenitent sinners, and keeps on doing so for as long as they remain impenitent. (We have ultra-u’s here, as you know, but I don’t recall Sherman being one. I know several of the other people in this thread aren’t either, myself and Sonia prominently. Every ultra-universalist I have met on this site, however, still affirms the two things Sherman did.)

I don’t recall him explicitly mentioning God’s wrath on impenitent sinners here–probably because the topic hadn’t specifically come up yet–but it fits conceptually under his affirmation that sinners need repenting of their sins in order to be saved from their sins.

Jn.3:36 "He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

As long as a person does not believe in Jesus, he will not see (percieve, understand, embrace, experience) LIFE, and in fact, he continues to live under a sence of God being angry at him, cut off from abundant life in Christ. Note though that this statment doesn’t imply that the person will never repent, either in this life or post-mortem. In fact, it is meant to inspire people to repent and put their faith in Jesus so that they might have Life!

Concerning whether or not repentance is left out of the message of the Methodists, I know not. If so, they’ve departed far from the message of John Weasley their founder. They do appear to be much more inclusive in their approach to minstry and life than Evangelicals, but that’s part of the reason I’m attracted to them. In evangelical circles, it really doesn’t matter how much one practically loves God and loves people, what matters is what one believes. One can be a member of the church though he be a drunk, mean man, IF he says he believes everything in their statement of faith. But if one disagrees with anything on the statement of faith, it doesn’t matter how much the person loves God, his fellow man, and lives a righteous life-style, he cannot be a member of that church. Something’s wrong with this picture, I believe.

A biblical example of post-mortem salvation - Jonah.

Jonah rebelled against God, fleeing His presence, drowned, died, and in Sheol (the grave, realm of the dead, “Hell”) feeling cut off from God, in torment, repented, turned his face to God, prayed, and God heard his cry, saved him, and even brought him back to physical life and set him back in the ministry where he continued to repent, grow, learn.

The wrath of God that lasts but a moment, but His love endures forever!

I have appreciated Sherman’s posts as well, but I hear roofus.

…based on my personal experience with a church going, seminary trained, christian professor, evangelical christian husband who was a porn using sex addict (strip clubs, and a couple seasons of adultery- one of them while we were church supported missionaries). The way I handled it where he kept on dabbling in it looks a lot like “mercy and acceptance” (I call it enabling and dumb. It was “hell on earth” for me and the children). The way I handled it where he finally stopped sure does not LOOK like mercy and acceptance. “Get out of the house. I’ll give you 40 days to cease and desist all of your addictions, or I’m filing these divorce papers I have all filled out”.

God never FORCES anyone to stay around. And if they stay around, seems to me as though the dross must GO.

Nevertheless, Sherman, keep us posted on your methodist experience. One of our old friends is a methodist minister. They are encouraged NOT to get attached to their church; to avoid attachment, they move them around every 2-3 years, so the atmosphere of the church may change depending who is the pastor.

Thanks Gem for sharing. And I completely agree that love has a tough side. We must hold eachother accountable to righteousness. Tough-love is needed many times in relationships. And God uses tough love with us, in this life and the one to come. Judgment I see as tough love and fully expect the fire of truth to burn the hell out of us! The difference between UR and ECT is seen in that UR affirms judgment and punishment of sin, but such flows from the love and acceptance of God and has a positive purpose; it’s tough-love. ECT affirms that judgment and punishment of sin flows inspite of the love of God, and ultimately only has a negative purpose, vengeance and even the continuation of bondage to evil from within and without. People are locked into their sin instead of delivered from it. In ECT, the kingdom of Satan knows no end; he forever torments the tormented and perverts what was created to be good.

The more I look into the Methodist denomination, the more I think it might be an ok place for my family and I to rest for awhile, but I doubt that I’d fit in it as a minister because of the denomination moving ministers around so much. That’s one thing I don’t see as being healthy, as a rule. I don’t know though for I’ve never experienced that. Ultimately I think I’ll need to start a fellowship, but until I have unity in my family I feel that I cannot do so. I pray and trust the Lord for His will to be done in due season, and would appreciate your prayers too as I do my best to discern the will of the Lord.

I appreciate your practical insight here, Gem. It reminds me a lot of McLaren’s discussion in The Secret Message of Jesus of inclusivism vs. exclusivism. Everyone is included, but they have to make the choice to participate in the kingdom; they cannot be part of it until they do. The dross must indeed go; the robes have to be washed clean, or there is no entry! But once they are, they may partake of the life there freely and without cost.

When you said: “He accepts them and then leads them to perfection, which involves them renouncing their sins”, what is the “which” that you are referring to? Is it:

  1. Perfection which involves them renouncing their sins, or
  2. His acceptance which involves them renouncing their sins?

United Methodist ministers are given a lot of theological leeway. Basically if you keep “Jesus” in the equation somewhere then you’re officially okay. So - UMCs can range from fundie type dogma all the way to very liberal beliefs - including UR.

This last Sunday, my family and I visited an interdenominational church in Hendersonville TN, about 30 minutes from where I live, and I’m very suprised to find that they describe themselves as interdenominational and inclusive. I haven’t met with the pastor yet, but I think they are open to UR. We’ll see. It’s a large church, probably 1000 people or so, and they seem to have a lot going for them. I hope to find a fellowship where my wife (an infernalist) and I (a universalist) can worship together.

Sorry I never got around to answering that.

I meant the “leads them” by the “which”. So to rephrase, “He accepts them and then leads them to perfection, a leading which involves them renouncing their sins.”

Sinners don’t have to renounce their sins before God accepts us enough to act to save us from our sins, but neither are sinners expected to first become perfect and then renounce our sins.

I’ve been thinking of checking out a United Methodist church in my area too. They seem to be pretty open-minded and non-judgmental. I’ll try to check it out sometime after Thanksgiving. I’ll let you all know how it goes when I do. :slight_smile:

Matt

I know we’ve covered this ground before but AISI there is no punishment beyond the emptiness of the sin state itself. The “wrath of God” was and is a metaphor describing life outside of the knowledge of paradise (ie: all mankind was driven out of the garden because the first couple disobeyed).

In real life we see that the same tragedies befall both the good and the evil. The only difference is that Christians (generally) call one “the wrath of God” and the other “tests”. Tribulation and anguish comes upon the soul which is missing the mark and it comes from the fact that the mark is being missed. In this state humans behave crazily because they are clueless to God’s full and unconditional love. To picture God smacking around sinners in anger because they have the sin dis-ease is a ridiculous and unreal image. Seeing the Father as He is is the only thing which cures one from the sin-state mindset.

FWIW - becoming a “believer” in the Christian sense doesn’t necessarily free the mind or spirit or body from anguish/torment. Until repentance is granted no one repents. Even people who desperately WANT to have a change of heart many times cannot. Yet - an open knowledge of God’s goodness and perfection cures everything, every anxiety. So any “wrath” or anguish I am experiencing stems from a lack of knowing the truth - that God is holding NOTHING against me or anyone else. It is our adventure and journey to return from our exiled state (a state which includes our vain imaginations about an angry/wrathful God) by realizing the truth of what is happening here and why, and it’s NOT because God is angry at impenitent sinners. I know some will say “but the scripture says” but it is mystery layered upon mystery. These things are purposely hidden, and it is our honor to search them out.

That the modern Methodists are leaning toward a more liberal theological mindset is a very positive thing AISI. Of course - fundies hate change and many will stick to their literalist guns to the very end. But I don’t dislike blind people for not seeing, I just feel sorry for them.

I’m with you there, brother. :slight_smile: Amen :slight_smile: