Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 6:14 am
BirdOfTheEgg wrote:There are many areas where Genesis is quoted as if literal, but I nevertheless do not think it's literal.corpselight wrote:but the idea of through one man sin came into the world, and through one Man we are all reconciled, which boils down to original sin in some fashion, appears to be important to universalism (though i still feel the meta-narrative carries the day).
It is similar to the "man is to die once, then judgment". It's making a point. Heck, sometimes I think Paul tries way too hard to draw analogies like these and I do not believe all of them. I similarly do not take "Adam was created first, then Eve, Eve ate the apple, so now all women should be in permanent submission and have pregnancy issues" very seriously, either. God was, in my view, describing a reality that will occur, not a reality that should occur (where Paul seems bent on perpetuating it).
To me, the biggest Universalist message is "I came not to condemn the world but to save the world", "love your enemies", etc. And the general fact that I consider God to be far more moral, good, and loving than any of us. "My ways are not your ways".That's one way to look at it. Definitely valid considering the various analogies in the NT.corpselight wrote:or maybe it's less simple and Adam and Eve are symbols rather than people. in which case original sin in my life is the first time i sinned, personally. Paul could have believed in a literal Adam and Eve, and used them to build his idea that sin and death are in us all, and it still follows that the same "all" is redeemed later.Yes. I think the core message of "all have fallen short" is that we should not obsess with being perfect. We can't be perfect, and we aren't. Too many people forfeit many things and cut of relationships because someone had a problem. Life is extremely unideal.corpselight wrote:the difficulty is that the best choice is not easy to find without foreknowledge! so all we can do is our best...and really i think that's all we can be expected to do, which again blurs the line of what sin is.
Of course, one can wonder what is really the purpose of the Church, and which Church. Is it supposed to be a microcosm of God's kingdom? I seriously do not believe that anymore. I think early Christians had their special place where they were to spread Christianity and its morality for a few hundred years, but now it's on all people, and we're to bring it all on all earth, not keep the light locked up in a church somewhere.
agreed, some excellent points!
i like what you say about us all falling short. it follows on from that statement that we may not be perfect but we are justified freely.
i think some confusion comes in at the sermon of the mount. Jesus says "be perfect as your Father is perfect". but this is clearly impossible, as i believe He knew. so...i think He was saying "look, don't be a hypocrite. God demands perfection, but none of you can do it. that's why I am here...to show the way and to conquer what holds you back"