The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Essentials

I think I’ve made this point before :exclamation:. Why can’t we use the Clint Eastwood method for settling doctrinal disputes :question: :laughing:

We could, I suppose, but this isn’t at bottom a doctrinal dispute.
But I would look stunning dressed as the High Plains Drifter.

Dave,

I’ve agreed with you that the term, betrayal, can be loaded, and come across as harsh. But when I review Parry’s words in context, I don’t see him intending to assert a “moral” judgment, or to censor those with other views, or even to apply betrayal as a verb to non-evangelicals. I read him to simply be using this term to say that he believes that non -Trinitarian theology itself is contrary to evangelical’s tradition (which it is). His intention in that essay is not to make judgments on non-evangelicals, but to convince traditional evangelicals that many of their beliefs are compatible with embracing universalism. And even as a non-Trinitarian, I too would affirm that.

If the term “betrayal” appeared anywhere on our Statement of Faith page as a formal position, I too would find it problematic. But I don’t see that it is there. Thus I only see this as an issue appropriate to raise with Robin. Any suggestion of placing formal language that opposes his, or of deleting his term betrayal, could sound like a request to censor another member. And I’ve long stood here for the widest possible tolerance for differing views and semantics on our site. So my own preference would be just to allow you both to state your views.

Grace be with you,
Bob

Ok, Bob, if you insist, I will let calmer heads prevail!! :smiley:

No, I would have been happy had he said that.
But it was a “fundamental betrayal” - not of tradition - but of the Gospel itself and the scriptures. I’m not going to argue any further about it, but words matter, and those are the words he used. And though it is not a part of the SOF, it is directly linked to; and I think many on this forum would agree with what he wrote.

Anyway, this dead horse is safe from me kicking it any longer. Yay!!
Thanks for the thoughtful perspective.

Jonny95 - are we ok??

Yep, Dave, we may have exhausted this. But yes, the reality is that the evangelical tradition sees rejecting the deity of Christ as a “fundamental” contradiction of its’ interpretation of “the Gospel and the Scriptures.” And since that is all equivalent to them, of course many here would appreciate Parry’s point.

What I might add, is my perception that the proportion here who holds this traditional view is lower than it used to be, with more who question such views finding a home here. I can only conjecture that the vocal nature of non-traditional views here may explain why the range of participation has noticeably declined. It seems to me that those of us who have progressed to a place that appreciates being able to challenge traditional evangelical beliefs and rhetoric, may have to wrestle with the effect our rhetoric and judgments have on a site that was founded on welcoming an evangelical stance. For me, the upshot is that all of us need to be secure enough to avoid expecting everyone to state things as we would prefer.

Agreed.

The forum has changed in the few years I’ve been here. When I first arrived, there was an agnostic moderator that noone had trouble with (nor I), another moderator who voiced his very low opinion of scripture and who wrote that Jesus was “kinda cool, he guessed” - I’m just saying that things were more ‘open’ and even those who denied the gospel or did not consider scripture authoritative in any way as compared to the artistic consciousness, were more welcome than any opinion from a fellow believer that was contra strict evangelical orthodoxy.

And that is the thing I was pointing to.

But I think you are right to approach it the way you do. I’m looking around for a more comfortable fit of forum; perhaps that would help the viewership issue here, where I did not know it was falling off.

Grace

Of course :slight_smile: It was nothing personal at all - I just thought it was a silly throwaway line that was a little unhelpful, that’s all.

However, Bob, rejecting the deity of Christ is not a defining characteristic of a unitarian (except in the case the modern position of the Unitarian-Universalist Association).

Jesus Himself was a unitarian. He said:

With these words, Jesus identified His Father as the ONLY true God, and with that little word “and” indicated Himself to be someone other than the only true God. Notwithstanding, Jesus was well aware of his deity as the Son of God.

Throughout the New Testament, the word “God” almost always refers to the Father alone, and NEVER to a Trinity.
In John 1:1, Jesus is called “God” not in the sense of being identified as the Father, but as being of divine essence (as also indicated in Heb 1:3, where Jesus is stated be be the exact imprint of the Father’s essence).

Personally, over 40 years as a believer, having spent 15 years in “ministry” among many different churches, I have met so many beautiful believers from every persuasion.

Modalists, Trintitarian Pentecostals and charismatics, I met Andrew Buzzard(Biblical Unitarian annihilationist author)- wonderful brother I disagree with heartily on several things) and spent a good bit of time in his home and taught at the Unitarian Bible College in Atlanta as a guest speaker and singer(even tho i was and am not a Biblical Unitarian), and I’ve even met a few Bi-nitarians who just really loved Jesus a lot. Catholic Charismatics that I met when I was teaching Sunday School in the Nazarene church(the only church I was ever a member of) got me kicked out of the Nazarene church when they laid hands on me and I got filled with the spirit and began to speak in tongues. Then they kicked me out because I didnt accept the doctrine of the Trinity LOL.

For all my studies and conversations with learned men and women as teachers or as opponents or as fellow explorers, there are still grey areas for me concerning the mystery of Deity and the exact form of the relationship between the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost. And I have studied this with intense interest- not just for the truth of it, but also for the nature of the conflicts over it, which have been, historically- really abhorrent.

Basing soteriology in the understanding of the thing is mainly a Trinitarian and Modalist error. The sectarian odor of that is to me strong evidence that they each lie furthest from the truth in their understanding. I mean, it would be no different to me than basing soteriology on understanding the ages or the restoration of all things. Those who insist most strongly on eternal torment and annihilation are most likey to cast universalists into hell for heresy, because their understanding, being weakest, needs the most shoring up with the prohibitions of religious dominion.

In a similar way, I began to be encouraged about the dubious nature of the doctrine of eternal torment in “Hell” when I discovered its roots in Catholicism of the 4th and 5th centuries at the beginning of the Constantinian hedgemony- a dark and unscrupulous era of ambition and political infighting among apostate men with gnostic tendencies and a total disrespect for the priesthood of the believer. Thus began the quest that led me to UR and being an absolute heretic :slight_smile:

At least the Hellists have the King James translation to blame somewhat- but Trinity occurs nowhere in the Bible and the process of making it seem like biblical theology involves a lot of theories, opinions and assumptions established as facts- and I say that as one who sees aspects of the trinitarian view as correct. But while in the ministry in a certain denomination I was told that if I didnt believe the Son was co-equal and co-eternal with the Father, I could not be ordained, to which I replied, “Well, I am convinced by several verses He is definitely not co-equal, and I just dont know for sure about the other thing- and I dont believe you do either.”

But I think is it dissembling to say that the words “betrayal of the gospel” would not be heard as a bit of an ephithet by anyone holding a position towards which those words were spoken, because it is really only a betrayal of trinitarian theology, or evangelical tradition, which ranks nowhere near “the gospel” by any measure I can see, being the jaded old non-denominational independent I am :laughing: .

I hate it when I hear such sectarian terminology used by anyone to describe brothers and sisters in Christ, washed in the blood, reconciled to God and walking in the same process of sanctification in which I am, though we may see things differently.

To me the only soteriological absolutes are Jesus, Son of YHWH, the one true living God, Born of a Virgin, Sinless and Obedient to the point of propitiatory death on a cross, Raised in bodily resurrection from the dead, exalted in the heavens as Lord of ALL, and submitted to as Lord by believers/disciples in love…

But it could probably be reduced further to

But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: 9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. 11 As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.”12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

To add some systematic theology on top that statement is, imo, nigh unto sacrilege.

Another thing I’ve seen in my days of vanity, wandering under the sun among the sons of men :wink:

When we get a revelation, we often already considered ourselves somewhere near the pinnacle of understanding and spiritual evolution, so we return with it to our tradition thinking… if only I can get them to see this- then we will REALLY be something.

But in the case of the restoration of all things and the salvation of all, it is not advanced theology OR advanced spirituality. It is just another step in the restoration of the milk of the “elementary principles of the oracles of God” and the foundation doctrines spoken of hebrews 5 and 6.

Being from any tradition, and now having also the understanding of UR, is more a reason to tear down deeply into what we thought our firm foundations were, more than a reason to just cap off what we had like adding a dollup of whipped cream to a slightly melted sundae.

The axe is being laid to the roots of the trees, and for far deeper reasons than misunderstanding the Godhead or being wrong about the doctrines of “resurrection of the dead and eternal judgement”. Christianity is falling into disrepair, not just because “as iniquity abounds the love of many is growing cold”, but also because it is so far from Jesus, Peter, Paul, James and John… so eaten up with tradition and fine points of systematic theologies that are fundamentally out of sync with “the mystery of His will, His kind intention which He purposed in Him, the administration suitable to the fulness of times, the gathering together of all things into one in Christ” as to be of an almost wholly opposing Spirit, simply bearing a few platitudes, laws and wearing Jesus stickers and t-shirts while totally missing what God is up to in the world.

IMO, at the core of that deeper understanding is the body of Christ, a Bride "coming down out of the heaven"s, and a thing many people think God is done with, but I think He is just starting to renew- the church.

How the word “essentials” doesnt call to mind more how we relate to one another in Christ as a body than exactly what we see about the fine lines of theological concepts sort of bogles my mind. The body of Christ is an “essential”. Jesus and Paul taught tons on it.

"That you may be one even as I and the Father are one, that I am in the Father and the Father in Me and I in you…

" until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.
Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of people in their deceitful scheming. Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will grow to become in every respect the mature body of him who is the head, that is, Christ. From him the whole body, joined and held together by every supporting ligament, grows and builds itself up in love, as each part does its work."

These are things that I think are being ignored(speaking generally) because of unbelief and immaturity, not because God is really only building the ecclesia in the heavenlies in some spiritual way. I believe that as Jesus is the “bread of life coming down out of heaven” the Bride of Christ must “come down out of the heavens” and that is what the wedding supper of the Lamb is really all about. The invitations have been sent, but most are too important to come and celebrate the union of the Bride and the Lamb. They may not have enough oil in their vessels to follow the Voice in thru the night to get there anyway- but I believe this age must see the bride adorned in order to be fulfilled.

I might be totally wrong, and I guess time will tell. Personally, I dont think God is done with the book of Acts yet, and the chaos we see erupting everywhere is like the tohu and bohu into which He will speak, “Let there be light” in some awesome new way, and there will be light, and it will be good :slight_smile: And I hope the separation of the waters, and the dry land, and the fruitfulness that will emerge from the mists is a clearer representation of the gospel message carried by a generation of children and disciples in more love, power and wisdom than the old wineskins can stand.

Thank you, Eaglesway! Your last two posts are much appreciated!

Perhaps the Unitarians and Universalists can find common ground - over humor. Let me inject some. :exclamation: :laughing:

I found this interesting “essential” cartoon today :exclamation: :smiley:

http://www.sunilbali.com/humor.png

And an “essential” joke from Please don’t feed the fears …… :smiley:

Note: Google URL shortener is my preferred one now - in most cases. In case of any questions, my answers are:

This is Google

This is what Virus Total (now owned by Google) says

The ball is in your court to prove otherwise :smiley:

http://d1mpb3f4gq7nrb.cloudfront.net/img/toons/cartoon1709.png

The dog on the couch - too close to home :laughing:

Indeed, “evangelical” universalists regard Unitarianism as a fundamental betrayal of the gospel and the biblical revelation of God."

Sorry I have not had time to read this thread but is it possible Parry was not thinking of the Trinity but of the often Unitarian belief that everyone goes to heaven automatically no matter what they do or think, simply because they exist?

Hi Steve - the context was actually very specific concerning the Trinity.

Just to re-state, I admire Robin and am thankful for his contributions, written or otherwise.

Paidion,

You appear to suggest that it should be obvious to Robin and I that Unitarianism affirms the “deity” of Christ. I have a doctorate in theology, but have usually perceived that the opposite was generally understood as the usual implication of affirming one is a Unitarian. If your definition is assumed, all my comments miss the mark. But I suspect that you’re actually raising a problem with shared understanding of terms, wherein your assumption about Unitarianism is different from Robin’s or even mine as a non-Trinitarian.

Not all non-trinitarians are Unitarians.

Sometimes when a term is used, as in Robin’s statement, there is a danger of setting up a straw man - I’m not saying he did this. But the moniker “Unitarian” is ambiguous, and does not necessarily equal non-trin; i.e., there is a range of justifiable positions between Trinitarianism and Unitarianism; further, there is a range of justifiable positions within Trinitarianism itself, and within Unitarianism itself.

Perhaps what is needed is the Wiki link to Unitarianism?

During my life shortly after college (actually, before entering graduate school and becoming a junior college academic bum, after graduate school), I hung out with the Unitarians for a few months. I think you can believe just about anything. The main emphasize is on social programs and behaving ethically.

Please note - my definition of academic bum is one who is a software engineering Nerd during the day. But then takes academic classes, at the local junior college, at night - just for the fun of it.

https://cdn.andertoons.com/img/toons/cartoon2603.png

Now on to my next phase. Becoming a Christian Rastafari. See Could Rastas and Christians Really Unite? :laughing:

But first, it’s time for my daily Quora question: Who are the lamest superheroes? :laughing:

Great posts Eaglesway thankyou but just a query about the above. You see, don’t even your soteriological absolutes draw a dividing line as strong as Parry’s even though they dont use the same stark terminology? I mean, unless I am mistaken about full-preterism, it denies the bodily resurrection of Jesus and so these absolutes put at least 2 of our forum members on the wrong side of your dividing line?
Isn’t it true that any beliefs, of any substance at least, will have a similar outcome as Parry’s? Whilst we may disagree with where Parry draws the line, or with his terminology, it is surely true that a line has to be drawn and this does not contradict the eventual reconciliation of the whole of creation.

I am also interested in your point about:

I dont know if I understand you. Are you saying that the Bride of Christ consists of saints who have ‘gone before’ and who will, sometime in the future, return to earth with Christ? Your help on this would be much appreciated.

Perhaps they(points of my my soteriology) do, altho i dont use them as dividing lines. I understand soteriology as determining who is “in Christ”, and it need not be an inherently divisive term, which is why I would use the Romans 10 verses as a base line. The other things I believe come with that understanding, or awakening to Jesus Christ as Lord are, in my understanding, a minimal foundation for a believer that comes with the gospel of Jesus Christ.

I am simply communicating my understanding of what I believe constitutes a good place to start- not judging everyone elses soteriology by mine. If I am criticizing anything, it is the tendency to extend soteriology out so far to include oblique doctrines(like the Trinity) in it.

I dont think the basic gospel story of Jesus life, death, burial, resurrection and Lordship is going that far- but as I write I am thinking it could be too far if you want to narrow it down to that basic revelation wherein a person becomes a 'Christian", which is defined by some as simply believing in Jesus.

But where does that stop? Certainly in the early church salvation included submission to the Lordship of the resurrected Christ and an awareness of His propitiatory death on the cross at a minimum.

“For so it pleased the Father to make all fulness dwell in Him and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself by the blood of His cross”… such a simple statement really.

I dont think a systematic doctrine on the godhead existed until a couple hundred years later, when the church began to define itself in terms of doctrinal knowledge rather than in terms of a communally experienced life in the Spirit.

I would hazard a guess that soteriology ought to accurately detect and define a reality of who God is including in the fellowship of His Son’s life in this age. Who are the ecclesia. At what point is someone “saved”(out of Adam- into Christ).

I personally dont think understanding the godhead comes into that at all.


I (personally me, not trying to teach anyone)believe the Bride is the assembled ecclesia of this age, described in Hebrews 12…

22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of [h]angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24 and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel.

I believe the parables about the wedding supper and the foolish virgins etc, refer to the manifestation of the Bride in any given generation, as well as over time throughout this age. She is a tabernacle of God in the Spirit built of living stones. She is “coming down out of heaven” in the same way Jesus was the bread of life “coming down out of heaven”. I think this age is about the first fruits, and the taking of a harvest that wwill be the seed stock of the ultimate harvest of all creation. Thats why the whole creation eagerly awaits the revelation of the children of God(imo).

Thats also why to me, setting up camp around a UR banner tacked onto any version of old wineskin is an error of understanding in terms of what we ought to be seeking out as ministers of the gospel of Jesus Christ, stewards of the mysteries of Christ, a kingdom of priests. Every priest is taken from among men to serve them in the things that pertain to God. YHWH separated Levi out to teach the children of Israel to come near to God in an acceptable way “so that I won’t kill them”. Paul talks about acceptable sacrifices in Romans 12, “For by the grace given unto me I exhort that no man esteem himself more highly than he ought- for to each is given a measure of faith”

Everywhere Paul teaches this element of recognizing the body as critical to maturity and fruitfulness. Now, it is like things have been bad so long, this whole essential area of doctrine has been excised from the work because, “Who wants to be accountable to a standard set as high as that”?

One even as I and the Father are one…

Until we all attain to the unity of faith, unto a mature man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of the Son of God…

Its easier to get in a club and just stay there, but thats not the Wedding Supper. Thats not what disciples have been invited to attend. All those who love Him are betrothed to Him in the Bride. Everyone who is hearing Him call is digging deep and getting ready, just in case. I may be sleeping when He calls (long period of inactivity) but if the Bride, “comes down out of heaven”- if some revival or outpouring begins, will I see it? Will I hear it? Will I have interceded for it? Would I leave my cushy life to go to it? :slight_smile: These are questions I ask myself, lest the gospel erupt out of theory and into my reality and I run and hide from it when it does.

And if it does, will I miss what God is doing because I am more attached to my systematic theology that to His Spirit moving in a body of priestly brothers and sisters?

The house of Levi lost the priestly commission because they “failed to teach the difference between the holy and the profane” and it went to the house of Zadok. As a result the sons of Levi were left to “minister to the house” but “they cannot come nigh unto me”. The sons of Zadok ministered in the house, in the presence, because"they did not forsake Me in the days of Israels apostasy".

Things are not ok because they have been a certain way for a long time. What is holy to God is what makes us one body, members of one another, as Paul said, “discerning the body”- the failure to do that was causing many to “sleep and be sick among you”. Recognizing the body of Christ is essential. Everyone who is born of God loves the child born of Him.

Setting up “unreal” divisions is sectarianism and is unholy.

I read a lot about the historic moves of God. The great stories like the rise of Methodism, the early Quakers and Shakers and Friends. A fellow named Frank Bartholomew wrote a book about Azusa street, he was a part of it. If his testimony is true God did some marvelous things because of a few praying Christian intercessors, but the work was short lived; Quickly carved up between Trinitarians and Modalists and the water quit flowing as quickly as it had begun because they did not recognize what God is doing. Building a house of prayer for all people or something like that LOL.