The Evangelical Universalist Forum

A challenging article re: Trinitarian thought.

Negative mysticism (like apophatic theology) isn’t inherently bad; it’s useful for keeping positive mysticism (and kataphatic theology) from running rampant into the everything-is-true falsity.

But the ground of all reality is not a mere cloud of unknowing (though the privative aseity endemic to Christianity, and borrowed from classical theism and eastern mysticism alike, where God simply exists uncaused, thus not essentially active in self-existence, would tend to slope toward believing that). And so it doesn’t make sense that the positive reality of the ground of existence is best and primarily experienced by a cloud of unknowing.

Which naturally the proponents of that method typically agree with: of course it doesn’t make sense! It couldn’t possibly make sense! Isn’t that great? :wink:

That might be a non-sequitur, Jason. It could be that ‘it’ cannot be communicated, and that’s all. People of like belief can talk amongst themselves, of course, and share a common vocabulary and be jolly; however, that does not give truth-value to the propositions that are formed using that specialized vocabulary. You see that, yes? And though that group of like-minded individuals has the freedom to look down on, condescend to, and deny entrance to, anyone who might seem to be an unjollifier, (thank you, I’ll be here all week :laughing: ) it would certainly be ungracious. But it is human nature.

I don’t know as I’ve ever said the concept of the Trinity did not make sense to anyone - my paragraph above shows that I think it is possible. But ‘making sense to me’ does not mean I am then in a position of judgment, condescension, and exclusivity. (I am not accusing you of that, JP, in fact I know your eyes are open and you strive for fairness.)

As to the “self-refuting nonsense” - your foe in that paragraph would be the individual who says that the concept “Trinity” : 1)cannot even possibly make sense to anyone and 2) cannot say that no one has ever understood it and 3) if that individual does say that it cannot make sense and never has, then 4) that individual is either spouting ungrounded assertion or 5) understood enough - to them at least - to say that the doctrine ‘cannot make sense’.

I am not THAT foe. The doctrine CAN make sense - in the following way:

Here is a link to a short 4-min video on retrograde motion. Most of us know this - that, at certain times of the year, planets seem to stop moving against the background of the stars, then go backwards, then start forward again - i.e., retrograde motion. The vid explains it. The rather fascinating explanation, early on in science, was that of the epicycles. Again, the vid.
youtu.be/piBBQTkoQ9c

This is an example of ‘saving the appearances’ - I’ve mentioned this before. The epicycles did in fact MAKE SENSE of a very puzzling, almost contradictory state of affairs - the heavens were supposed to be perfect, perfect circles and everything!! So the epicycles, being their own little perfect circles, at least were circles, and made for an elegant and intellectually satisfying explanation.

So: I believe we are faced with a mystery, a state of affairs, and more than that, with Being Himself, that just blows concepts apart. The best we have been able to do to save most of the appearances - tying together in some manner “I and the Father are One” and also “There is one mediator between God and man, the man Jesus Christ” - is to cobble together (sorry, but that is what it seems like to me) a coherent system of propositions that almost ‘saves the appearances’.

I get it. It is a lovely theory that just cannot be explained. I could go much further - but we are not speaking in broadly Aristotelian terminology here - and I’m also agnostic about the efficacy of Aristotelian analysis in helping us either in affirmation or denial of the concept ‘Trinity’ anyway.

Myself - I just kinda refuse to be put into a category on this. I firmly believe the Apostle’s creed as I understand it. And every so often I too get a taste of the Glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ, imparted by the Holy Spirit - and while the term “Trinity” does not enter my mind at those times, I am overcome nonetheless, forgetting all about classification and who is ‘right’. I just want to be THERE. :smiley:

I’m far from trying to write a simple desultory phillipic (S+G fans will get that) -My point comes down to this question: would it be morally or intellectually right to exclude or denounce a confessing Christian, or even in our hearts alone consider her as lesser in faith or knowledge -somehow not seeing ‘OUR truth’ - SIMPLY on the basis of not believing that the case for Trinitarianism has been made? Is THAT the basis of our fellowship, and the basis of our judging the level of knowledge of another believer?

My problem with the Trinity is not that I can’t plug into the paradigm and make sense of it within the pseudo-logical(imo) framework created for it. I just dont think it fits the whole context of the scriptures.

There is a difference between a cloud of unknowing and a different paradigm based on another way of putting the building blocks together- but the kids just keep throwing those blocks at each other and there is so much blood spilled LOLOLOL

Oddly enough, to me the Trinity is based on a huge cloud of unknowing, since it requires the acceptance of a sort of illogical(for those outside the cloud) statement of a supposed fact, for which a person is supposed to set aside their reason, and the normal meaning of words to accept a construct that might not make sense because it is not-sensible rather than because it is mystical…but I understand the perspective from which Trinitarians view the scriptures on it, and I have no problem with the Trinity as a viewpoint, as long as it isnt represented as a soteriological absolute.

Also, as far as discussing this, there is the common sense issue of leavng room for ones own potential error on a subject over which learned and devoted men of spirit have disagreed for at least 1700 years, and avoiding the error of hammering down dubious authority on verses that can be interpreted with some diversity and also prioritized differently.

As far as I am concerned all one must believe about Jesus as He relates to the Father, is that He is the only begotten Son, of the One True God, YHWH, born of a virgin, who lived a sinless life, died as a propitiation for sin, was raised on the third day, ascended above all heavens as Lord of the Universe, and that in order to be “in Him” we must follow Him- and He will raise us up.

I disagree with Trinarians about the co-equality of the Son( and maybe the co-eternity), I disagree with Unitarians about the pre-existence of the Son(He created all things and had glory with the Father, so He pre-existed), Modalists I disagree with just on principle because their attitude is so obnoxious (LOL jus kiddin), Are there still any Bi-nitarians? :laughing:

I agree, Eagles’ Way. I don’t think we ought to hit one another over the head with it. It goes both ways. I’ve been assaulted (not here) by non-Trinitarians angry that I can’t accept their beliefs as my own. It is Jesus who saves us; not our correct beliefs. I have no problem with their ideas; I just don’t subscribe to them; can’t subscribe to them. But just because we feel a brother or sister is mistaken about a doctrine is no reason to treat them with anything less than love. If they’re wrong (or if we’re wrong), it’s not because anyone WANTS to be wrong. We just have limited understanding in our present state. All names will sort themselves out in the end (to paraphrase Aslan). Love is the essential. If we don’t have it now, we will have it before we’re able to join the society of the family of God. Until then, we’re not safe to be allowed to play with the other kids. :wink:

:slight_smile: Well-said :slight_smile:

This seemed like as good a place as any to insert this contribution of questionable worth. :wink: As always, I’m simply responding to whatever happens to strike me at the moment, and simply trying to offer another perspective, which, though largely redundant, will perhaps nudge the discussion forward another inch, while including perhaps one or two thoughts not yet examined. You decide:

(BTW, it’s going to sound like I’ve lost the thread of this conversation before I even begin. Trust me, I have a point to make, and it will lead me back around to “The Trinity,” the subject at hand, eventually.) Blog rants from angry former Fundamentalists are a dime a dozen. I understand them…I’m often angry too…I bear some of the scars as well. But I often feel as if my ranting now comes from a different position: I no longer self-identify as an Evangelical (although I certainly can and do still learn and glean from those that do), and I no longer consider myself to be drawing principally from an Evangelical’s primary categories of thought. So, for instance, I feel like I’m not being addressed very well, to say the least, when I read something like this article I found once upon a time: gordonatkinson.net/rlp-archive/i … e-for-this. Granted, this particular rant was about a different topic - homosexuality - and I am not trying to dredge up that issue here - but the tenor of the author’s words serves as an illustration of my larger point. He dismissively demands, “Show me what you got, Christian,” and then proceeds to “debunk” a collection of Bible passages - IOW, to speak around, not to, someone like me. My response, should he even care to hear it, would be, “Well, I’m not trying to prove the rightness of a moral [or, in the current thread to which I’m replying, doctrinal] stance by the Bible, because I don’t think the Bible is there for that purpose, and because unlike the average Evangelical, the Bible is not all I have to turn to, nor am I burdened with the necessity of making it ‘agree with itself’ in every detail. So ‘what I’ve got’ is not limited to a few scattered and (obviously) highly debatable excerpts of Scripture. Thanks be to God, I also have 2,000 years of ongoing Tradition within the Church: that is, the still evolving theological struggle of the whole Body of Christ, informed by the indwelling and ever-revealing Spirit of God.” That now carries an authority for me that I couldn’t have begun to imagine in my “evangelical” days. It runs hand-in-hand with the inward testimony or confirmation an individual must feel to see the truth of anything (what GMac called the “doctrine of the Spirit”).

So it is with the Incarnation and the Holy Trinity. If it took centuries (millennia, really) to begin to see the truth of God as Trinity; if St. Paul barely saw it himself, or didn’t see it at all; if the jewel of it is buried in Scripture only in the most recondite, esoteric, and undeveloped references; if God made use of human corruption, intrigue, and heavy-handed religious politics to fully bring it to the world’s attention; if it could only be confirmed in this sinner’s heart by an ecstasy over the beauty of the thought of perfect relationship within God himself…well, what of it? Does any of that make it any less beautiful, or any less true? For me, “Jesus of Nazareth” is not enough; the “cosmic Christ” who holds all things, including me, together, and can answer every need I have because he shares in the very essence of God - in a way I never will, nor ever want to - is infinitely satisfying. For me, inside the Circle of Father, Son, and Spirit is the only universe I care for.

Beautiful, Latecomer. :smiley:

Sort of like He did in bringing Hell and eternal torment to the world?

(Said in the most humorous and non judgmental spirit possible :laughing: )

I once thought I was a Binitarian, since I believed that Jesus was divine, and did not believe that the Holy Spirit was a third divine Individual, but was the Persons of the Father and of the Son. However Binitarian thought considers God to be a Binity. In that way it is still subject to the same problems as the Trinity.

I find it so much simpler to believe as Jesus Himself did, in the “One True God.” (John 17:3) and Jesus the Messiah whom He sent.

Or in one God—the Father, the Creator of all things, and in one Lord—Jesus the Messiah THROUGH whom God created all things. (1 Cor 8:6)

Count me in, Paidion.

Taken in said spirit…no worries. And I do see the inherent humor and irony here. All I can say is we must consider apparent historical effect. ECT and the Trinity surely cannot be considered parallel ideas, at least not on the level of effect. The latter seems absurd and pointless to many, but I don’t think one could claim it has harmed anyone psychologically or spiritually. Rather, since my own experience is not unique, I can say it has certainly helped, cheered, comforted, and even healed many people through the centuries. The former, on the other hand, has (as most of us know) been a brutal tool for threats, repression, and manipulation - and is, you would doubtless agree, an intrinsically harmful belief, both to the one who holds it to be true, and potentially to anyone coming under his or her influence.

Unless you r told because you do not believe in the Trinity you are not in the body of Christ and destined for hell- a heretic. Or maybe sent “there” by being burned at the stake as was Michael Servetus. (still no offense intended, jus sayin :slight_smile: )

Jason, do you think the Trinity is a single hypostasis or do you believe It (He? Them?) to be three hypostases?

Uh - Oh :open_mouth: :open_mouth: :open_mouth: :open_mouth:

I have to admit that I am not a Trinitarian for several reasons. Up until Christ, there was only one God, Lord and Savior over all. For me, this doesn’t change. Since the authors of the bible are testifying that Jesus is Lord and Savior, this means that He was God Himself, in the form of a man. In referring to God as the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, I don’t see three separate beings but God in different roles. For example, one can be a husband, son, father and teacher. This does not make such a person separate beings. In the same sense, God is the Father of creation, He is a Holy Spirit, and He came to Earth, living life as a man(a son) to reestablish His word and serve as a physical example for all of us as to how to live as a son of God.
In observation of the world around me, I see that there is only one of everything. No two things are exactly alike. I would have say that this is also true of God. There is only One. Why would God, being Lord and Savior, then make Jesus Lord and Savior? This seems redundant and unnecessary. God made man(the son). Each of us is given authority over our own lives. It is because of God that we are also creators. He is the first and in turn created us as such. This is what gives us freedom. We are sons of God when we individually and collectively follow in His ways. We then become all in all with God.
Lastly, if we start separating God into different beings for all the things written about Him in the bible, there would be more than three. Revelation 4:5 states that there are seven Spirits of God. Proverbs chapter 8 speaks of wisdom as a person. Is this a separate being? For me, there is only one God.

Hi LLC,

I think the position you have expressed above is known as “Modalism” (God exists in three different modes: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.) Modalists compare this to an actor who wears three different masks).

Some Modalists deny that they are, in fact, Modalists. Do you accept the label of “Modalist”?

I have come to realize that there are even many who claim to be Trinitarians who are actually Modalists. The first example that I encountered as a teenager, was a Baptist minister’s wife. I was a classic Trinitarian at the time. I was puzzled about some aspect of Trinitarianism (I don’t remember the issue) but I asked some questions. Anyway in response to me she said, “There’s only one God, you know.” From other things she said, I realized that she meant that there is only one divine Individual. So I asked her, “Then how could Jesus have prayed to the Father as to another Person?” She replied, “Don, haven’t you ever talked to yourself?”

Paidion, I didn’t know that there was a label for this. No, I don’t mind being a Modalist. I suppose if the shoe fits…
Thanks for sharing your story. I like it! I especially enjoyed the woman’s response. That’s a good one. :laughing:
One of the reasons I think the New Testament is written in such a fashion that is not quite straightforward, is that times were very dangerous. Even Jesus, after performing miracles, would tell the people not to say anything. I think He wanted to have time to speak His message before being charged with blasphemy. He also spoke in parables so that only the wise would understand. I think the authors were hoping that later on, when times were safe, that we’d be able to read between the lines so to speak and say that yes, Jesus was none other than God Himself in the flesh.

Then again, in answer to my own question “Why would God,being Lord and Savior, then make Jesus Lord and Savior?”, maybe God’s six days were up.He does say in Genesis 6:3 “My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, for he is indeed flesh.” He probably got sick and tired of our crap, decided to retire,and handed everything over to a younger Spirit. :smiley:

Hi again, LLC

There is a denomination which holds your position concerning God—the United Pentecostal Church.
They won’t accept the label “Modalist.” They call their position “Oneness.” We sometimes attended a UPC in our area. I was friends with the pastor. He gave me a book written by one of the UPC apologists, David K. Bernard. The title of the book is “The Oneness of God.” You can buy the physical book from Amazon, or you can download the book as a pdf file FREE from the site below:

apostolic-voice.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/the-oneness-of-god.pdf

There’s also a wealth of information, written intelligently, here: onenesspentecostal.com/index.htm

It is a theological position that I cannot grasp. The site I linked to has a lot of Q+A and it still makes my head spin.
As well, the insistence on speaking in tongues as necessary!!! for salvation - that is, unless you have that particular sign of receiving the Holy Spirit, you are not a saved Christian, even if the rest of your theology is perfectly scriptural - well, I think that insistence is misplaced.

But as I said, I can’t quite mentally grasp what the teaching of Oneness IS.