The Evangelical Universalist Forum

70 AD- calling you Davo

I approve of this message
 :laughing:

Does Pantelism view this passage of Scripture as being fulfilled already:

Rom.8:17 Yet if children, enjoyers also of an allotment, enjoyers, indeed, of an allotment from God, yet joint enjoyers of Christ’s allotment, if so be that we are suffering together, that we should be glorified together also." 18 For I am reckoning that the sufferings of the current era do not deserve the glory about to be revealed for us. 19 For the premonition of the creation is awaiting the unveiling of the sons of God. 20 For to vanity was the creation subjected, not voluntarily, but because of Him Who subjects it, in expectation" 21 that the creation itself, also, shall be freed from the slavery of corruption into the glorious freedom of the children of God." 22 For we are aware that the entire creation is groaning and travailing together until now.

Has creation already been “freed from the slavery of corruption”?

Short answer
 YES. More detailed answer as follows


The pantelist understanding of Romans 8 has nothing to do with the physical time-space creation
 this passage is all about “the creature” Israel, and her redemption, i.e., covenant renewal aka resurrection


“Full Preterism is an obvious error”:

forums.carm.org/vb5/forum/relig 
 -preterism

Come now, Origen. I’m NOT a Preterist (either partial or full). But I have respect, for those on this forum - who hold this view.

I mean. If folks allow me, to promote the tribulation and the Zombie Apocalypse. Then I can allow them, to hold various preterist positions. Or even MORE outlandish views - like no free will universalism or ultra-universalism. :laughing:

And as a member of the Theosophical Society (mainly for their library resources)
There’s nothing folks say here
that’s more stranger than
the guest lecturers, they sometimes invite
 :laughing:

Or you being a fan of Benny Hinn. Who is my book, is in the same category
as Peter Popoff, and his miracle spring water and supernatural money miracles. :laughing:

I mean. If folks allow me, to promote the tribulation and the Zombie Apocalypse. Then I can allow them, to hold various preterist positions. Or even MORE outlandish views - like no free will universalism or ultra-universalism. :laughing:

A little known theory is that the Zombie Apocalypse took place in Jerusalem in 70AD. Maybe you can become a Zombie Preterist! :astonished:

What does commenting on a viewpoint have to do with “respect” for a person? Is it disrespecting a person to tell them the notion that “the saints will be eternally joyful at the sight of the eternally damned”, or “God is a Teddy Bear” or “heaven will be hell” is an obvious error?

If having your notion of “respect” for all who hold any views whatsoever (whether those of Satanism, cults, doctrines of demons, serial killing & suicide murdering like in 9/11, etc) sums up your entire post in a word, then shouldn’t that include having “respect” for someone quoted - not named Origen - who said “Full Preterism is an obvious error”?

Do you suppose Jesus always showed so-called “respect” (according to your notion & application of it) to the Pharisees, or Paul to the Judaizers?

Is your idea of “respect” being tolerant of all, everything & anything, or being religiously doctrinally politically correct?

Does davo often fail to show your kind of “respect” to those who oppose his Pantelistic notions repeatedly posted all over these forums? :unamused:

Will davo come to the rescue of his Pantelist compadres notions being slaughtered by TomL with the Word of God on the CARM Preterist forum, or finally admit after decades of promoting the doctrine the error of his ways? Time will tell :laughing:

I have seen the debates, on Full Preterism, Ultra Universalism, and No free will universalism - among other things
All here on this forum, mind you. And they just drag on - both pro and con. Folks holding these views here, KNOW what the Orthodox positions are. And what views forum members here - hold. For every PROOF you come up with - no matter how good
 Those holding those views will come up with counter views.

So if you wish to continue the debate - be my guest. I’ll just sit on the sidelines and watch. :laughing:

But every now and then
I’ll try to warn them, of the up and coming tribulation and the Zombie Apocalypse. :slight_smile:

It all reminds me of a song. :laughing:

Are Robin Parry, Tom Talbott and Gary Amirault also obsessed with soteriology?

Does the link i posted to CARM have something to do with soteriology?

I, too, once thought universalism was heresy. That didn’t make everything i believed wrong or invalidate my born again experience which occurred in connection with someone who also thought universalism was heresy. If we confine ourselves only to fellowship with & the teachings & ministry of universalists, we are cutting ourselves off from the rest of the body of Christ & what it has to offer, which is much IMO.

No doubt many of your queries on this site would receive amazing answers on CARM.

Guilty as charged!! Although the evidence is strong on this forum that I usually engage on a reasoned level. IF however some nob wants to mix-it I have little qualms using their language in hopes of breaking through their dull-wittedness
 but I have to admit, that doesn’t always work. :sunglasses:

Anyway, this particular thread addressed to me by someone else was relative to ‘pantelism’ specific as opposed to prĂȘterism per sĂ©. But that said Origen
 your last post after my last response is TYPICAL of your mind-numbing mindset where you ask a question (Rom 8) and get a cogent and detailed response and what is your rejoinder
 just more evidence your own lack of positional acumen in that you simplistically ignore what befuddles you and immediately run off at the mouth with the next idiotic claim courtesy of some other website — and typically from you
 another cut n’ paste job.

Davey, as you might have easily deduced from my most recent comment in the recent DBH translation thread, & other posts on this topic, my “rejoinder” when you don’t see a response is typically a :unamused: Though that doesn’t explain your lack of a “rejoinder” to posts scattered in threads over these forums. Is that “evidence” of “your own lack of positional acumen”? Also this friendly challenge still waits you:

Will davo come to the rescue of his Pantelist compadres notions being slaughtered by TomL with the Word of God on the CARM Preterist forum, or finally admit after decades of promoting the doctrine the error of his ways? Time will tell :laughing:

Let’s see some evidence of your “positional acumen” matched up head to head, mano a mano, with TomL on the CARM Pretesist forum. I’m giving you a 95-99% chance of joining your campadres in the slaughterhouse. Just be sure to not mention anything universalist related (e.g. Pantelism) since that will get you banned, & be on your best behaviour, as i wouldn’t want to see you disqualified before your Preteristic notions are destroyed :smiley:

Indeed qaz
 trickle-down taunts are tiresome and I must be getting old as I have less and less time for such facile foolishness. :unamused:

Idolize :laughing: I am banned from CARM & i’m quite sure TomL wouldn’t come to post here. Why doesn’t davo go there to save his compadres & put his Preterist notions to a real test up against a guy that knows the Scriptures & Preterism very well?

If I may ask, why were you banned from CARM? They do take a Calvinist position. And are HOSTILE to any form of Universalism. Even one that views hell as temporary. Where if I ever became a convince universalist
and not just a hopeful one
is the position I would take. I don’t see the purpose, of going on a site - that’s openly hostile, to any type of universalism. However, on a neutral site, that’s at least open to hearing both positions - it would be an interesting idea. :slight_smile:

I tend to ask questions like this. Is a person still trying to have, a relationship with Christ? Are they still trying to live a moral life? Are they trying to follow the gospel, and helping the poor and needy? Do they still repent of any “apparent” wrong and ask for forgiveness? Etc.? Or do they think that Christ has done everything? And there’s nothing to be done - on their part?

In the end, it’s NOT who has the most brilliant mind. Whether that’s Thomas Aquinas, John Calvin, Martin Luther, etc. It’s how we attempt to implement, what the Gospels and Christ - are telling us. Take something and run with it.

For me:

It’s Orthodoxy in communication with Rome, incorporating some elements - into the Anglican tradition.
Embracing some contemplation and healing elements, of the Wisdom Tradition. That finds its epitome in Christ.

It’s NOT always the logicians, that win the art of persuasion - but the marketers. As Steve Roller said today - in his newsletter:

I leave everyone with a cartoon or two, from sunilbali.com/2018/03/almost-as-big-as-beyonce/

They have many answers, to a wide variety - of Biblical and theological questions. Which is a good starting point - for discussions? Or defining some term, that needs defining.

Imagine we were a philosophy site, devoted to Plato. And we were talking about justice. Does that mean we SHOULD NOT seek input, from philosophers versed in Aristotle, Kant, etc? Or are you INSISTING, that the ONLY folks having answers, to topics raised here - are universalists?

And since this site is run, in an ACADEMIC style. Calvinists have opinions to express - which I share. And so do Eastern Orthodox - which I ALSO share.

I even share the opinions, of zombie apocalypse believers. - on occasion. :slight_smile:

Imagine if we were on Windows, and only had ONE browser.

I like Opera, for its free VPN and US servers.
I like Google Chrome for downloading.
I like Firefox, for playing PCH entries and games (with the appropriate Anti-AD, Anti-Pop-up, and Anti-Tracker plug-ins).
I like Mircosoft Edge, for playing TV show episodes (as it has no plug-ins installed, that I need to disable).

But I can be more FORTHCOMING
, on what the zombie apocalypse believers and Peter Popoff, has to say
 If that’s your cup of tea
 :wink:

But first, you must do your homework. By watching The Walking Dead (on tonight, folks), Fear The Walking Dead and the Peter Popoff infomercials. :laughing:

For what, in the eyes of the beholder, was considered a rules violation. Alleged misbehaviour of some sort, as i recall, e.g. calling Calvinism by a certain name which is not to be named on this forum. :smiley:

ChristianForums.Com officially places universalism in the heterodox category, but allows it to be discussed on one of their many forums, though one is not allowed to “promote” it even there, as i recently found out when being banned for a month. AFAIK the subject was & is still not allowed to be discussed on CARM. OTOH the Christianity forum at CityData forums allows great freedom in discussing the topic of universalism.

These are all good questions. Perhaps the Pantelists & Full Preterists of this forum would care to answer them & explain how (and why) their views differ from those of orthodox Christianity. According to these heresies all prophecies of the Scriptures have already been fulfilled & Scripture applied to the ancients. Several times i’ve asked them, if the Scriptures applied to the ancients, or only to them, on what basis do they decide how they should live today. I received no answers. Other questions we might ask are:

  1. Is the Christ of Pantelism the Christ of the Scriptures or of Orthodox Christianity?
  2. What is the Gospel, if any, for today according to Pantelism?
  3. In Pantelism should we preach a gospel today? If so, what is it? That all are saved already, as one self proclaimed Pantelist recently posted here? What are the practical consequences of such a belief? Does it negate evangelism?
  4. Does Pantelism deny the physical resurrection of the body?
  5. Does Pantelism state that physical death will never be abolished?
  6. Does Pantelism believe the gifts of the Spirit still operate today & should be sought for?
  7. Does Pantelism think there is after death punishment or do even the most monstrous sinners go straight to heaven at the moment of death? What are the practical consequences of such a view?
  8. What, if any, is the difference between Pantelism & Full Preterism?

“Preterism is divided into two camps: full (or consistent) preterism and partial preterism. Full preterism takes an extreme view that all prophecy in the Bible has been fulfilled in one way or another. Partial preterists take a more moderate approach, and many partial preterists consider full preterists to be guilty of heresy.” gotquestions.org/partial-preterism.html

That’s one reason, I like the Calvinist site - Got Questions - a lot. In their eyes, there is no such thing - as a dumb question. And they attempt to answer, any and all questions - no matter how silly or absurd. Sure, they will give an answer - through the lens of Calvinist theology. And I’m more in harmony, with Eastern Orthodox theology. But I admire their attempt, to answer any and all - theological and Biblical questions. But I have also shared links, from the patheos.com - Evangelical and Catholic newsletters. As well as Eastern Orthodox sites.

Then TomL won’t be here to refute the imaginative twisting of the Scriptures in the Pantelist responses.

CARM would also offer Davo a much larger audience to see his views.

Davo is free to go to CARM, is he not? I’ve seen his posts on other forums besides this one BTW, though none where his views were seriously challenged as they would be on CARM. Isn’t it time he put them to a - real - test? To prove all things:

New American Standard Bible
But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good;

King James Bible
Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

Berean Study Bible
2 Mercy, peace, and love be multiplied to you. 3 Beloved, although I made every effort to write you about the salvation we share, I felt it necessary to write and urge you to contend earnestly for the faith entrusted once for all to the saints. 4 For certain men have crept in among you unnoticed—ungodly ones who were designated long ago for condemnation. They turn the grace of our God into a license for immorality, and they deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ

For those interested
 this video presentation HERE is the direction the likes of pantelism is tracking — beyond one-dimensional simplistic questions, exploring rather the 3D concepts of inclusion and grace.

qaz
 you might find this quite informative.

Is that like davo’s obsessions with Pantelism & Paidon?

From everything i see & know Pantelism is error, but TomL seems to be much more informed on the topic & has already done the legwork. Give me a few months & i may be where he is at now. I never even heard of Pantelism till recently, while davo has had his own website about it for years, has been posting on various forums re the topic since at least about 15 years ago, & believing in it for who knows how long. So are you suggesting a novice should engage in “battle” with an expert?

And why would davo want to remain lurking in the shadows & debate a lessor opponent? BTW, he hasn’t even responded to several of my posts here on the topic, as i already mentioned earlier. Furthermore, in my mind, it is still to be determined how dangerous of a heresy Pantelism & Full Preterism are & therefore how much (or if) i am interested in “battling” them. If davo would answer the questions posed, it might help in that regard. Non answers to simple queries tend to raise & confirm suspicions.