Right you are, Origen. Indeed, Jesus taught MANY truths that were never mentioned by Moses or the OT prophets. Indeed, Jesus revealed the Father as He really is, and as He was UNKNOWN by Moses and the OT prophets.
In Matthew 5, Jesus clearly taught something ânew.â Here is the passage in the New American Standard Bible:
Clearly, Jesus is not talking about not abolishing the COMMANDMENTS of the Mosaic law. He said in vs 17 above, that He came to fulfill the Law and the Prophets. In what sense did He fulfill them? Did He keep the Mosaic law? He didnât even keep the Sabbath command! The apostle John declares in his gospel that Jesus broke the sabbath:
So, if Jesus didnât keep the Mosaic law or even the fourth of the ten commandments, then in what sense did He fulfill the law and the prophets? He fulfilled the PREDICTIONS of the law and the prophets. Clearly Isaiah 53 was a prophecy concerning the Anointed One. Jesus also said that Moses wrote about Him:
Is Jesus speaking about keeping and teaching the Mosaic law? No, He is speaking about keeping and teaching the basic Law of God upon which the Mosaic law IN PART is based, but which greatly differs from the Mosaic law. Jesus then goes on to give the particulars of these differences:
Jesus is not satisfied with the command to refrain from murder. He goes well beyond it. You must not even insult your brother.
Again He goes beyond the command to refrain from adultery. Even desiring some manâs wife (The Greek word for âwomanâ and âwifeâ is the same) is to commit adultery in your heart and mind.
So Jesusâ words are contrary to those of the Mosaic law which permitted divorce and remarriage. Isnât that a ânew teachingâ?
Jesusâ teaching is not only to refrain from making false oaths, but not to make any oaths at all! NEW TEACHING.
Formerly revenge was the order of the day. But Jesus teaches the oppositeâNon-resistance. And if a person force you to give him your possessions, let him have them. If forces you in other ways, do twice as much as he asks. Notice that Jesus doesnât say that revenge is Godâs command, or even Mosesâ but simply says, "âYou have heard that it was saidâŠâ
Iâm not sure where this command has its source. Itâs not part of the Mosaic law, but perhaps it came into Jewish law much later. Jesus says that a person who, in a practical way, loves those who hates him, shows himself to be a true child of God. For God doesnât hate those who hate Him, but gives sunshine and rain to everyone! Hmmmmm⊠Not the way God is depicted by Moses is it? Moses says that He gave commands to kill His enemies!
WOW! We constantly hear people saying that nobodyâs perfect and nobody CAN be perfect. Who are we going to believe? These people or Jesus?
Jesus wouldnât ask us to be perfect like God if it were impossible, would He?
Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
WOW! We constantly hear people saying that nobodyâs perfect and nobody CAN be perfect. Who are we going to believe? These people or Jesus?
Jesus wouldnât ask us to be perfect like God if it were impossible, would He?
Jesus also said that if our eye or hand causes us to sin then cut it off or out but we know he was using hyperbole so i think Jesus said something like strive for perfection rather then literally be perfect like God.
I can see the hyperbole in âcutting off your handâ or âplucking out your eyeâ if they cause you to stumble.
But I donât see becoming perfect as hyperbole. James seemed to think that perfection was possible:
The apostle Paul admitted that he was not perfect, and yet by making the effort, he expected to reach perfection:
âCompletedâ â thatâs what âperfectâ means. It does not mean âflawless.â
Even Jesus, though sinless throughout His life, wasnât always perfect. He had to LEARN obedience, and that together with His suffering made Him perfect:
And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ. (Philippians 1:6 ESV)
âCompletedâ â thatâs what âperfectâ means. It does not mean âflawless.â
Paul also said he was the chief sinner. Was he the chief sinner? Not likely but on the other hand iâve heard that perfect actually means âmature.â
Boy. The Calvinist site Got Questions, has some interesting things to say.
What does the Bible say about perfectionism?
Let me quote a bit - from their answer:
Oh, my God. They do put things concisely.
Letâs see what they think - the Biblical word means:
It looks like they agree with Paidion - I think.
https://media1.tenor.com/images/e50d9e9e2ef2f05365437a4675d8e7d6/tenor.gif
I take it that things like omniscience, omnipresence & omnipotence are excluded from the definition of âperfectâ as Jesus meant it in Mt.5:48.
The Greek word ÏÎλΔÎčÎżÏ (Strongs # 5049) has been translated in other ways:
âhaving reached its end, finished, mature, complete, perfect;â
studylight.org/lexicons/greek/5046.html
âIn the LXXâŠthe word means âunblemishedâ, âundividedâ, âcompleteâ, âwholeââŠâ (TDNT, Vol.8, p.72).
It is used in the following verses:
You shall be blameless before the LORD your God. (Dt.18:13)
These are the records of the generations of Noah. Noah was a righteous man, blameless in his time; Noah walked with God. (Gn.6:9)
Your lamb shall be an unblemished male a year old; you may take it from the sheep or from the goats. (Ex.12:5)
âIn Greek thought and usage ÏÎλΔÎčÎżÏ often means âtotalityââŠThis justifies the rendering of corresponding Hebrew terms by ÏÎλΔÎčÎżÏ, primarily in MtâŠThe context in each case supplies the reference. In Mt.5:48 the âwholeâ applies to conduct in relation to men. God is fully âundividedâ in thisâŠAs God is unrestricted in His goodness, so according to v.48 the disciples of Jesus should be âtotalâ in their love, bringing even their enemiesâŠwithin its compassâ (TDNT, Vol.8, p.73-4).
Yes, He did.
As John says, âthe Law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.â (Jn.1:17).
And âGod is loveâ.
Correct Steve⊠the intended end was always maturityâŠ
Perfection = Maturity <áŒÎœÎŽÏα ÏÎλΔÎčÎżÎœ> andra = âa person of full age and statureâ teleion = âfully realisedâ.
Paidion, Deut. 10:17-19 âThe Lord your God is the God of gods and the Lord of lords, the great, the mighty and the awesome God who does not show partiality nor take a bribe. He executes justice for the orphan and the widow and shows His loving kindness for the stranger by giving him food and clothing.â
1Chron.16:34 Give thanks to the Lord for He is good; His love endures forever."
Psalm 103:2-5 âBless the Lord, O my soul and forget none of His benefits. He pardons all your sins. He heals all your diseases. He redeems your life from the pit. He crowns you with loving kindness, He satisfies your years with good things.â
Lamentations 3:22-23 âThe Lordâs loving kindness certainly never ceases because His compassions never fail. His love, kindness, and compassion are new every morning. Great is your loyal trustworthiness, O Lord.â
There are hundreds of verses in the OT like the above that tell us who God is. Read Psalms, Proverbs, all the Prophets, and they will also tell you who God is because they KNEW Him.
Lev. 19:16 âYou shall not go about as a slanderer among your people, and you are not to act against the life of your neighbor.â
Lev.19:17-18 âYou shall not hate your brother in your heart. You shall not take vengeance nor bear any grudge against the children of your people.â
Psalm 15:3 âHe does not slander with his tongue, nor does evil to his neighbor, nor take a reproach against his friend.â
Psalm 37:8-9 âRefrain from anger and turn from wrath. Do not fret, it leads only to evil.â
Proverbs 15:1 âA gentle answer turns away wrath, but a harsh word stirs up anger.â
Proverbs 10:12 âHatred stirs up conflict, but love covers all wrongs.â
Proverbs 6:25 âDo not lust in your heart after her beauty or let her captivate you with her eyes.â
Exodus 20:14 âYou shall not commit adultery.â
Malachi 2:16 "For I hate divorce says the lord God of Israel.
"
Exodus 21:23-26 âBut if lasting harm follows then you shall GIVE (not take) life for life, eye for eye, tooth for toothâŠAnd if a man strikes the eye of his servant or the eye of his maidservant and destroys it, he shall let him go free for the sake of his eyeâŠâ
Proverbs 20:22 âDo not say I will repay evil. Wait for the lord and He will save you.â
Perhaps there is a type of perfection - attainable to some. Which you might find, in the stories of saints and holy people. In the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox traditionsâŠor the traditions of other religions.
Now I have seen good timesâŠand I have seen bad timesâŠPerhaps much more bad times.
But I have also:
Hung around with Father AâŠthe Roman Catholic priest, who âallegedlyâ has the gift of healing and hearing the voice of God. And a strong inner voice, keeps telling meâŠhe will be declared a saint - after his death.
Spent many years, with the medicine men and womenâŠof the Two Feathers Medicine clan. And saw many things, I canât explain away. (see Family Reunion)
Hung around the Bruno Gröning circle of friendsâŠA German healer who healed crowds of hundredsâŠAnd his healings still occur - after his death.
Hung around with an Eastern saint - now deceased. That is written up in the book, This House Is On Fire (available on Amazon).
Etc.
See,for example (NOT related to Father A) Detroit priest is now one step from sainthood
Now maybeâŠJust maybe:
I am telling nice stories, for the purposes of entertainment.
I experienced what I saw. But perhaps I suffered from abnormal psychosis. Or I hypothetically - partook too much, of that Native American peyote or ayahuasca. Which I can neither affirm nor deny - mind you.
Or all (or most), of what I experienced was real.
Well, perhaps some have obtained - a type of perfection. Whether they know Christ, in the traditional way - or not. Or maybe they are like the superheros, of the movies Thor: Ragnarok and the Justice League - âmyths and legendsâ. Like presenters at the International, Flat Earth conference - are trying to promote.
You decide
Probably not. But in my understanding this is not an example of hyperbole. Paul FELT that he was the chief of sinners because prior to his miraculous conversion, he had been actively putting Christians to death.
Paidion, From what I understand, Jesus did not fulfill the predictions of the Law and the prophets, He followed the same Law of God that Moses and the prophets followed and proclaimed to be the true word of God. They WERE the Christs( the anointed of God) who continued to pass on the wisdom of God as told to them by their ancestors and which they themselves saw the truth thereof. I believe that if the original book of the Law of Moses were to be found, it would say the same things that Jesus said.
I want to share a message - from today - from the Roman Catholic site Contemplation. Whether things were entirely fulfilled in 70 AD - or NOT⊠Or ALL the âunusualâ theologies presented here - are true or NOTâŠwe need to live in the eternal now. Hereâs todayâs message, from Roman Catholic priest Richard Rohr:
I donât think that shortly after 70 AD, they could:
Live in the eternal now and
Watch TV evangelist - Joel Osteen - on TV.
Letâs live in the now, with some timely humor from Sunil Bali at sunilbali.com/2017/11/over-read-and-under-done/:
I approve of this messageâŠ
Does Pantelism view this passage of Scripture as being fulfilled already:
Rom.8:17 Yet if children, enjoyers also of an allotment, enjoyers, indeed, of an allotment from God, yet joint enjoyers of Christâs allotment, if so be that we are suffering together, that we should be glorified together also." 18 For I am reckoning that the sufferings of the current era do not deserve the glory about to be revealed for us. 19 For the premonition of the creation is awaiting the unveiling of the sons of God. 20 For to vanity was the creation subjected, not voluntarily, but because of Him Who subjects it, in expectation" 21 that the creation itself, also, shall be freed from the slavery of corruption into the glorious freedom of the children of God." 22 For we are aware that the entire creation is groaning and travailing together until now.
Has creation already been âfreed from the slavery of corruptionâ?
Short answer⊠YES. More detailed answer as followsâŠ
The pantelist understanding of Romans 8 has nothing to do with the physical time-space creation⊠this passage is all about âthe creatureâ Israel, and her redemption, i.e., covenant renewal aka resurrectionâŠ
Come now, Origen. Iâm NOT a Preterist (either partial or full). But I have respect, for those on this forum - who hold this view.
I mean. If folks allow me, to promote the tribulation and the Zombie Apocalypse. Then I can allow them, to hold various preterist positions. Or even MORE outlandish views - like no free will universalism or ultra-universalism.
And as a member of the Theosophical Society (mainly for their library resources)âŠThereâs nothing folks say hereâŠthatâs more stranger thanâŠthe guest lecturers, they sometimes inviteâŠ
Or you being a fan of Benny Hinn. Who is my book, is in the same categoryâŠas Peter Popoff, and his miracle spring water and supernatural money miracles.
I mean. If folks allow me, to promote the tribulation and the Zombie Apocalypse. Then I can allow them, to hold various preterist positions. Or even MORE outlandish views - like no free will universalism or ultra-universalism.
A little known theory is that the Zombie Apocalypse took place in Jerusalem in 70AD. Maybe you can become a Zombie Preterist!