The Evangelical Universalist Forum

70 AD- calling you Davo

“Israel” per sé wasn’t being “punished”. The old covenant which had been the life (though it came to be the spiritual death) of Israel was done… the old covenant Mosaic world of law-righteousness and all that symbolised it, was coming down and coming to naught. The nation had been redeemed at Calvary, and so all vestiges of the old régime had to go — unfortunately anyone ignoring the warnings given paid dearly.

Humanity had sat in the darkness of ignorance as to its Creator (Acts 17:27-28) but through the gospel (Israel’s redemption) the light of grace shone to the point where Gentiles could see their inclusion into this grace — that’s the wider reconciliation that flowed from Israel’s redemption, as per Romans 11 above.

According to Davo’s recommended web site on pantelism, the Cross alone was NOT enough for mankind’s complete redemption:

So, the idea is that the blood of Jesus, provided by being killed by an angry God, PLUS the blood of all the Jews in Jerusalem, killed by an angry Jesus at his Second Coming in 70 AD, were BOTH necessary for mankind’s full redemption.

But please consider the “Christus Victor” theory of the atonement, which proposes that,

So, rather than an offended God killing Jesus at the cross (through Roman soldiers), plus a disrespected Jesus killing all the Jews in Jerusalem (and destroying their law and their temple, through Roman soldiers), in order to redeem mankind; in actuality, the Trinity is nonviolent, and would never kill anyone; rather, Satan killed Jesus, a willing sacrifice, as per Christus Victor.

Further, in harmony with Christus Victor, consider that Jesus, our kinsman-redeemer, has graciously paid the debt price of this land himself. As per the discussion in Jeremiah 32, a kinsman could buy back land lost by the owner to an outside party, by himself paying the purchase price. The sealed book could then be delivered to the original owner, or to the heir. The heir could, at his convenience, break the seals, and, with the open scroll as his authority, take possession of the land—by force, if necessary.

As with all theological debates, the position we choose on any given issue is based on our belief about the true nature of God. I can now honestly say that, “God is good, all the time.” That He is exclusively about abundant life and love. And that love would never kill people, or torture them, or curse them. I encourage you to follow your heart about this “too good to be true” viewpoint, and …let your head catch up later.

Shalom.

Let me share this about “eternal” “punishment”:

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~Is hell a never-ending torture chamber, as commonly believed, or limited in time, and for corrective purposes? Recall: *“Love never fails” *(1 Corinthians 13:8). Reconsider Matthew 25:46, regarding the fate of the damned and of the saved. Jesus says,

*"Then they will go away to eternal punishment but the righteous to eternal life.” *

1. But the Greek word translated “eternal” (or “everlasting”) is aionios, and does NOT in fact mean “unending or everlasting in quantity of time.” Rather, aionios speaks to an "indeterminate age set by God alone.” This adjective is used to describe something within time, not outside time (that is, in eternity). Aionios is the adjective form of the Greek word aion, where we get our English word “eon” (age). Young’s Literal Translation for aionios is always “age-during.”

2. And the Greek word translated in this verse as “punishment” is kolasis, a term used to describe the pruning back of trees, to allow fuller and healthier growth. It is also used to describe corrective punishment, “inflicted in the interest of the sufferer.” (For vindictive, vengeful punishment, “inflicted in the interest of him who inflicts it, that he may obtain satisfaction,” the word timoria is used.)

Note: Many erroneously believe that if you deny that the punishment of this verse lasts forever, then you must also deny that the “eternal” life of the saved is unending. But that doesn’t follow, because this verse is dealing with life, or punishment, WITHIN TIME, during the final eon. However, eternity is outside time.

In 1 Cor. 15:20-28, we discover where time will come to its end, and eternity will begin. When the last person has repented in the Lake of Fire, the purpose of the Lake will be finished. It might take a long time, but “Love is patient.” 1 Cor. 13:4.

Well, I suppose that leaves us both staggered because it plainly says all throughout the Bible that this other covenant was NOT from God, it was the works of MAN.
1 Corinthians 10:3 tells us “Moreover brethren I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea. All ate the SAME SPIRITUAL FOOD( the bread of heaven) and all drank the SAME SPIRITUAL DRINK. For they drank of the spiritual Rock that followed them and that Rock was Christ.”

This means that those coming out of Egypt received the SAME spiritual teachings as that which Jesus taught, the SAME word. They were given the WAY OF LIFE. However, some turned away and followed their own way as it says, Romans 1:25 “They exchanged the truth of God for a lie and worshipped and served CREATED things rather than the Creator.”
Psalm 106:20 “They made a calf in Horeb and worshipped a molten image. Thus they exchanged THEIR GLORY for the image of an ox that eats grass. They forgot God their Savoir.”
Deut. 32: 18" Of the Rock who begot you, you are unmindful and have forgotten the God that fathered you."
The list of verses go on and on. I don’t see how you can miss it.
Isaiah 1:10-17 “To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices to Me? I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed cattle. I do not delight in the blood of bulls or lambs or goats.Vs. 13 incense is an abomination to Me, the new moons, the Sabbaths, and the calling of assemblies. Your new moons and appointed feasts Mt soul hates…Cease to do evil and learn to do good, reprove the oppressor, defend the fatherless, plead for the widow…”
ALL the books of the prophets say the SAME thing. The books of the New Testament say this as well. They were following man made doctrines(Mark7:7, Matt.15:9,Col 2:22, Titus 4:4 Romans 1:21-23 etc. etc. etc.

So the aionios life (eternal life, NASB) ends because it is within time, but the “eternal life” never ends because it is outside of time?

Immortality will give those who receive it endless (i.e. eternal) life. For Christians this occurs when Christ returns & resurrects them from death.

Davo, perhaps I have misunderstood you, and misrepresented your position. If so, I apologize.

Do you believe it was God who destroyed Jerusalem in 70 AD, in righteous judgment? That God was, shall we say, “fed up,” and “let them have it,” after warning them (the Jews in Jerusalem) that He Himself would do it (via the Romans) unless they repented?

Or, do you believe God exclusively warned the Jews about *Satan’s *plan for the destruction of Jerusalem (via the Romans), calling them to repentance in order to save them from it? That He was in no way responsible for, or instrumental in, Jerusalem’s destruction? That Satan alone is the destroyer?

Thanks.

He did indeed so warn… so qaz, as a prêterist, is your issue then with Jesus’ use of the word “eternal :question:

CLEARLY the text of Mt 25:33, 41, 46 references both goats AND sheep… so potential “punishment” was not wholly inclusive of the entire nation — my point… as it was in Paul’s plea of Rom 10:1 etc.

I think so. The promise of “Age-during” life (wrongly translated “eternal” life) only has to do with how we may experience our existence within time. But eternity is time-LESS, and there, there is no rebellion, pain, suffering, death, beginning or end.

I believe all humans, in 2017, are either alive on earth, alive in some aspect of heaven, or suffering in the captivity of hell; yet all are still inside the boundaries of time and space.

However, I also think that all humans, and all angelic beings (see note), are also already outside time and space, enjoying never-ending adventures and experiences—with God, Jesus, the Holy Spirit, and each other—in an immortalized Creation, having all already “graduated” from the “classroom” of time.

In eternity, everyone is already presently living ‘happily ever after’ with God.

We are all currently in two places at once, although we can’t really yet perceive it: in this “classroom,” as passing, or failing, students; and yet all of us also already living as successful “graduates,” in eternity.

Time and space enclose our classroom now; but eventually every last created person will repent and receive Jesus as Savior; and then we will all “graduate” together, into a single eternal existence, at a particular moment: when the last person (that slowest, most self-willed student among us) finally comes out of the Lake of Fire, and drinks the living water of Jesus that is freely available to all (Rev. 22:17).

Linear time will end with that person’s repentance, at some point in our future. We will all graduate together, as indicated in 1 Cor. 15:20-28:

"]"Then comes THE END” v. 24. All Death will have been abolished (which would include the Second Death, The Lake of Fire) v. 26, and God will finally be “all in all” v. 28.
Note: The first sinner was Lucifer. Speaking of the comprehensiveness of the redemptive work of Christ, and also our co-crucifixion with Him (Gal. 2:20), recall that the crucifixion of Jesus was prefigured in Numbers 21:9 by a bronze serpent on a pole. And Jesus promised, “And I, if I be lifted up out of the earth, will draw all pas] to me.” John 12:32.

Blessings.

qaz… can’t you see in my post above yours that the explanation was limited to certain ones within Israel, so to extrapolate as you do beyond this (and then make your various conclusions) is to ignore what I’ve previously noted, i.e., JUST BECAUSE Israel WAS redeemed whole-scale didn’t remove certain consequences flowing through — God in his mercy was giving them fair warning to turn… many did, plenty didn’t. That many didn’t doesn’t in any way shape or form nullify the divine reconciliation any more than the ignorance of those present nullified Jesus’ entreaty to the Father… “forgive them for they know not what they do” — that is of course unless you believe the Father did not grant Jesus’ plea.

Paul’s “And so all Israel will be saved” spoke to their redemption, and this was fulfilled. The FACT that SOME were temporally blinded in part, and as such either killed or taken captive to Rome reflects to reality of redemptive election where some were spared and some were not, BUT all together were in God’s hands with regards to the outworking of the reconciliation. That’s what Paul’s… “who are you O man to reply against God?” was all about. We look at it and think… “man, sucks to be them” — but in the bigger picture of God’s redemptive working BECAUSE they WERE reconciled all would have been well with them ultimately.

Still, I wouldn’t have liked to have been in their shoes. But again… my MAIN point was that the judgement of AD70 was on the OC institution that had been corrupted.

Lets put it a different way, If we look at in a fundamental/ historical context… you have a son or daughter that is really doing bad stuff, you continually tell them that the bad stuff they are doing is going to cause total harm, in other words, ‘PLEASE TURN FROM WHAT YOU ARE DOING’ and here is how you can change your way… so the son or daughter continue in the less than righteous behavior, you try multiple times to try to tell them they are screwing up… So in the end, because you love them so much, you say, ‘I will pay your debt’. I love you. So the debt is being paid but the forces of the sons and daughters are rebelling… There are those who say Wait, I think I am doing what you want me to do… Your so called way out is crazy… But a son was put to death. :blush:

But the prophets before told the story to come… the story of the son…

In the end the Father clears the board, He has sent the one, In other words He sets all things straight. Ahh but HE continues to love the sons and daughters…

Can we argue with that?

You really haven’t worked and thought through the implications of your own position… your own position is that redemption ISN’T complete UNTIL Christ’s parousia. All I’m saying is… “YEAH, and my position has that parousia as done!” THEREFORE redemption IS complete. So, in FACT, it is your own lack of parousia that has YOUR position denuding the Cross of its power, i.e., it is your position that is truly the one being…
NOT enough for mankind’s complete redemption”.

Pantelism understands the AD30-70 event, i.e., Christ’s cross and parousia were bookends to God’s ONE-time salvific intervention into human history that ultimately covered and made provision for all.

IOW… the Cross was God’s DECISIVE event with the Parousia being God’s CULMINATING event.

?

Our redemption was complete at the cross, before we were born: at the cross, we were all “bought at a price” (1 Cor. 6:20).

…Nevertheless, you and I are BOTH still waiting for “the redemption of our bodies (Romans 8:23). The complete manifestation of our redemption is something still future, yet we hope for it in faith and perseverance, trusting that God is faithful to His word, and that the promised glory will be a reality.

Or do you consider your body to be already glorified, Davo? :open_mouth:

Blessings.

My concern was with the issue of future & post mortem punishment, or the denial thereof, as it relates to Pantelism.

Debating the various views of the future - Post, Pre & A-Millenialism, Preterism etc - don’t hold much interest. Why bother.

I suppose all 99% of Christians would need to hear about it is the following before dismissing it entirely & never looking back:

"“Pantelism, is a recent term in Christian eschatology that refers to what some see as an extension of Full Preterism. This view maintains that the Scriptures both prophetically and redemptively, were entirely fulfilled in the person and work of Christ and consummated at the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. Accordingly, this consummation included not only Christ’s Second Coming, but the final judgment, the resurrection of the just and the unjust…”

You can’t with any legitimacy claim ‘1 Cor. 6:20’ was saying that ‘redemption was complete’ AND THEN slip in a qualifying… “The complete manifestation of our redemption is something still future” — that is NOWHERE in any text. If redemption is complete, it is complete, period. That you misconstrue Rom 8:23 doesn’t justify this bob-each-way claim.

Paul says… “the redemption of our body” — for the pantelist this is to be understood in terms of the ‘collective body politic’ — the Greek text is in the singular, NOT plural. The ‘body’ that was being redeemed, i.e., a change at that time in progress, was the covenant body of Israel… from OLD covenant to NEW covenant. And THAT is the understanding of the 1Cor 15 passages you likewise misconstrue.

The pantelist understanding of Romans 8 has nothing to do with the physical time-space creation… this passage is about “the creature” Israel, and her redemption, i.e., covenant renewal aka resurrection:

No… viewed from the pantelist position the 1Cor 15 passage is not speaking of you or me, and NOT speaking of “physical bodies in postmortem resurrection”. 1Cor 15 is all about Israel being raised up out of ‘the body of death’ aka the old covenant INTO ‘the body of Christ’ aka the new covenant.

Israel was sown in a natural body of *dishonour *and weakness — Judaism = corruption

Israel was being raised in a spiritual body of glory and power — Christianity = incorruption

Incorruption was being put off. When the last vestiges of were corruption were gone, i.e., the destruction of Jerusalem and Temple in Christ’s AD70 Parousia THEN came to fulfillment “death is defeated.”

The veracity of this understanding is backed up by the parsing of each and every “it is sown / it is raised” in the passage where EACH ONE is rendered in the present tense — an action in progress — thus “it is being sown” AND “it is being raised”. This was akin to Paul’s “putting off the old man” dying to self and thus being raised to newness of life, aka “putting on the new man” — putting on the new creation (new Israel) aka “the Israel of God” etc, etc.

This is the problem from your point of view, as with many who believe God’s word was lost because of Adam, consequently developing over time until finally being revealed in Jesus. However, this is not the case at all. In fact, it is quite the opposite. God’s word began with Adam in the garden wherein he tested it and found it to be true. He then passed it on to his children, who passed it on to their children and so on and so forth.

Israel was not sown in corruption as you state, rather it was sown in righteousness, the righteousness of Abraham and those that came before him, as it says here

These people were given the same instructions, the same word, that Jesus taught. As Jesus Himself said, His words were not His but his Father’s, meaning they were not only God’s words, but the words of the forefathers. These words were what the nation of Israel was founded on, as it says in Joshua 21:43-45 "So the Lord gave Israel all the land which He had sworn to give to their fathers and they took possession of it and dwelt in it. The lord gave them rest all around, according to all that he had sworn to their fathers. And not a man of all their enemies stood against them; the Lord delivered all their enemies into their hand. Not a word failed of any good thing which the Lord had spoken to the house of Israel. All came to pass.

As in the parable of the wheat and the tares, the “law” entered in via man.
Isaiah 5:4 "And now O inhabitants of Jerusalem and men of Judah, judge between Me and My vineyard what more was there to do for My vineyard that I have not done in it? Why when I expected it to produce good grapes did it produce worthless ones?

Could be, in fact I originally naturally took whole creation to mean humanity, and I don’t really have an issue with that but to say thematically applying it to Israel makes more sense IMO. The passage is the contrast between the creature/creation Israel and the firstfruits (sons/children of God in Christ) elected to bring to fruition the redemption… that which they were the firstfruits thereof, i.e., Israel. This then follows Paul’s same… “and so all Israel (whole creation) will be saved (redeemed).”

Ultimately what God is doing in the biblical story for the wider creation of humanity He is doing FIRST for His Creature Israel… “to the Jew first and then the Greek” etc. I tend to think a goodly portion of “the world” language speaks to and of Israel’s world, such as Jn 3:16 and 1Jn 2:2. That is not to say such can’t have application beyond, BUT I think the evangelical trend of reading ourselves directly into everything INSTEAD OF seeing such as applying secondarily as the divinely intended beneficiaries; this I tend to think can at times miss and mess with the text… but that’s just my opinion.

As I showed earlier in this thread, according to the pantelist position… the likes of Paul’s words elsewhere show the extent and reach of Israel’s redemption to be the divinely intended catalyst and prerequisite to securing humanity’s reconciliation, i.e., it was ALWAYS God’s plan for all…

Thus did Israel’s redemption reconcile the world — to quote somebody really important… “it is finished!

This is the problem from my point of view with so many of your posts… I have to spend way too much time undoing or correcting what you say I’m saying, when I’m NOT saying what you say I’m saying. :open_mouth:

Maybe we could ask, what, if any, verses talk about salvation not connected to the first century destruction of the temple by the Romans :open_mouth:

Then we should talk about the word reconciliation as opposed to salvation in the general evangelical notion of this idea of after life.???

Yes of course… context is important. In this light have a look… HERE.

This is how pantelism views these things… HERE.

The way I see it, parousias were happening all the time. The Garden of Eden fell, Noah and the flood, the Tower of Babel collapsed, Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed, the Israelites were brought out of Egypt, Samson ripped down Temple, etc. etc. etc. In fact, the Temple was destroyed and rebuilt many times. As I mentioned before, these are reoccurring events.