The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Is it Always God's Will to Heal?

Seems like a great way to keep belief alive. Just say it isn’t God’s will to heal all, or say it is, but that his will isn’t done here most of the time. Seems like no matter what happens, God had an out via him being toothless, or heartless.

I believe that is a false dichotomy, Gabe. You seem to be in that frame of mind these days, I hope it gets better for you soon.

Let’s consider the passage with a bit more context:

This passage indicates God’s corrective judgment. This man needed his “flesh” to be destroyed (not his life taken). The church at Corinth did deal appropriately with this man by shunning him or excommunicating him as Paul instructed a few verses later:

This treatment had a positive effect on the man. He repented (had a change of heart and mind) about having been copulating with his father’s wife (his step-mother). After his repentance, Paul had quite different instructions to the Corinthian Church concerning this man:

You are free to present a third, fourth, fifth, etc… Option.

And you are ready to shoot them down, one by one? It’s not hard to do, I’ve done it myself, and did for years. Once our mind has been narrowed to the one deep rut of 'bad things happen, ergo…" , it’s hard for us to grow out of. But growth is the only thing that will help.

And will growth change the laws of logic? Will the tough-minded be able to subject the universe to the coldness of A is not B? - in other words, will any amount of comforting or intellectual challenge or insight change the one in the rut, who will always come back with - "unless you can tell me why X happens, I will not believe? "
It is possible and profitable to be aware of two opposing things at once, but it is not easy : to hold the cold hard truth of evil and also to be aware of the ‘Beauty of the Infinite’, the glory yet to come, immortality, and the Presence that heals the wounds that men have wrought upon one another.

The meaning of the world comes from beyond the world.

From Frederick Beuchner:
“The problem of evil is perhaps the greatest single problem for religious faith.
There have been numerous theological and philosophical attempts to solve it, but when it comes down to the reality of evil itself, they are none of them worth much. When a child is raped and murdered, the parents are not apt to take much comfort from the explanation (better than most) that since God wants us to love him, we must be free to love or not to love and thus free to rape and murder a child if we take a notion to.
Christian Science solves the problem of evil by saying that it does not exist except as an illusion of mortal mind. Buddhism solves it in terms of reincarnation and an inexorable law of cause and effect whereby the raped child is merely reaping the consequences of evil deeds she committed in another life.
Christianity, on the other hand, ultimately offers no theoretical solution at all. It merely points to the cross and says that, practically speaking, there is no evil so dark and so obscenenot even thisbut that God can turn it to good.”

The rut exists for everyone already. The difference is whether one decides to face it, or pretend it isn’t there and ignores it. Pretending a problem isn’t a problem can work, but it isn’t reality. That said, I will grant you that reality may not be the most practical position to hold for ones well being. But growing out of the “rut” as you call it, need not be done only one way. Coping mechanisms have many roads. Religion is one, just like hedonism. They both are designed to help people cope with the unknown.

It may seem that way; maybe you’re right. A bit more Beuchner:

Q: And the skepticism?

A: I think that just comes from having a mind. I mean, if with part of yourself you believe in this reality that you [feel] you have in these various subtle and elusive ways encountered, which is, above all things, loving, healing, creative. Because you read the newspapers and listen to the radio and watch what goes on next door or upstairs — there’s a lot of horror in the world. Sadness and brokenness and disappointment. So how do you put these two things together? You cannot help, if you are honest with yourself, say[ing], “Well, maybe this whole holy business is just a lot of hogwash. How do I know I’m not just trying to keep my spirits up? How do I know I’m not just inventing it for my own comfort?” But I have never come out on that side. I’ve never given up this conviction, faith, profound sense that all ultimately is well. Beneath the worst the world can do, there is always the glimmer of the best.

Q: What do you say to people who can’t come out that way?

A: You might be right. You might be right. Maybe I’m kidding myself. But don’t write it off too easily. Don’t write off the possibility of the holy too easily. Keep looking. Keep listening. Don’t just decide. It’s very easy in a way, horrible in some ways, but simply to give up the whole thing, to say, “Well, the hell with it, as far as I’m concerned life is pointless and [so] live the fullest, most successfully self-fulfilling life you can and let the rest go hang” — I’ve never reached that point in my life.

Q: How do you keep your faith in spite of so much suffering in the world?

A: Well, it is in spite of it. You can’t pretend it doesn’t exist. You can’t somehow theologize it away, as people have tried to do. I think of Christian Science disposing of the problem of evil by saying it’s just an error of mortal mind. Nor can I imagine myself saying with the Buddhists that it’s just the result of bad things we’ve done in the past for which we now have to pay a price. None of those things works for me. I think you simply have to say this is in spite of faith. This is the shadow side. [There is] that great remark of [Paul] Tillich: “Doubt is not the opposite of faith. It is an element of faith.” You can’t believe in an all-powerful, all-loving God and look at the horrors that are going on in the world — and never more so, as far as I’m concerned, than right now in this world and in this country — without saying, “How can I hold these two things together?” I have no formula for doing that. But my answer to myself is, don’t give up hope. Don’t give up hope. God is in all those things. The holier, “the More,” transcends all of the wretchedness that goes on in the world.

The interview itself is short but pithy. You would probably enjoy the freshness of it. I did.
pbs.org/wnet/religionandethi … iew/15358/

I have zero issues with Beuchner. As far as I can tell, based on your quotes, he is worthy of respect for his honesty. Unfortunately, the majority of Christians I have known would never take his position of humility. They are right and not even a chance could they be wrong.

I agree.
I apologize if I was sounding preachy - if there is a rut, I’ve been it off and on since early adulthood. I like to say that many a time, I’ve looked into the Abyss - but the last time I did, it was looking back at me, and I realized that I didn’t have to just stand there looking at it, that hope is still a very real thing and in fact it is the medium for our flourishing as a human.

Beuchner always wakes me up.

Of course, we would NOT be happy…unless I shared an answer…from the Calvinist site - Got Questions:

Why doesn’t God heal everyone?

Never mind what Joel Osteen says…Or what the Charismatic churches say…Or the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox saints - have to offer…Or what Native American ceremonies and medicine men and women - have to offer…or what healers and healing modalities - have to say.

Unless we read what Got Questions has to say, then we are missing the boat. :wink:

But just so we are not “one-sided”, here is another Christian spin - on the topic:

Is it Always God’s will to heal someone?

Just make sure, you are on - the right boat. :smiley:

You are one wierd dude. But I like you.

“11. Hope beyond this life. One cannot live well in this life without hope. Life is enhanced if you can bring yourself to believe beyond it as well. No one knows whether we have a higher destiny. If you are so inclined, investigate the matter. But better than inquiry into the immortality of the soul is living in such a way as to deserve it.” -MavPhil, ‘Happiness Maxims 2013.’

Ok that’s not protestant teaching, but I’m not protestant anyway…

I want to return to the article:

Is it Always God’s will to heal someone?

And cover an important point - the author makes as a footnote:

Well, the apostles could preform miracles (but not in all cases, as the Got Questions previous link mentions). And the Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholic saints (as well as saints, from the Sufi and Eastern traditions) - can sometimes preform miracles. And the Holy people and medicine men and women…of the Native American spiritual traditions…can sometimes preform miracles.

But - most of the time…it is healing…happening over time. And we can use traditional medicine…and also alternative or complimentary medicine, like Traditional Chinese Medicine, Ayurveda and homeopathy…alongside spiritual healing.

This is an important distinction - the author brings up.

How do you know this healing isn’t a natural? Most “miracles” touted by people seem to be the type of no evidence. Like a sickness which one cannot see with their eyes goes away… They say a miracle. But you never, ever, see evidence of limbs growing back. If “miracles” happen, why are they limited in their ability? Just like Paidion telling a story about a Chinese man visiting their church hearing the gospel via tongues in his own language? These are the types of stories that somehow are never verified. What was the mans name? Let me guess, you don’t know. Why would a Chinese man step foot in a church if he wasn’t a Christian anyway? So, like, why did he need the gospel? And if he did, why did he dissapear again, never to be seen? I imagine the church that gave him the gospel would give him a kinship with others there… When you start asking the questions the story falls apart and excuses are made, or rather judgments against the questioner. God always has a way out in the mind of some of his believers.

Look, the disease will get healed or not healed… Our interest is if there is anything we can do or not do to effect change. Is the God of Israel working on our behalf or not… and if so what are the parameters and if not :confused:

Seems to be a pretty clear question. :laughing:

That is the real question, isn’t it? How can we know?

In most cases, folks feel energy - moving in their body. Whether its from the Holy Spirit, healing energy of God, etc. I have felt this, with the Roman Catholic priest - with the gift of healing And some with things, like a Sufi Saint. Folks don’t go to see him - for the fabulous lectures. But for the spiritual power - Barakah - where they gain healings or spiritual experiences.

I like this definition from WIki at en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barakah:

Well, it’s the same thing in Eastern Orthodoxy, where they distinguish between God’s essence and energies. EO Saints are full of God’s energies and the Holy Spirit. Let me quote a bit - from orthodoxwayoflife.blogspot.com/2010/07/divine-energies.html

And those on the receiving end - can feel the energy. By whatever label you call it.

For example. I read the healings every three months, in the Bruno Groening circle of friends journal. And they always describe this healing process. And EACH of these healings, are verified by someone - in the medical profession. Where they provide commentary. And many come, after seeing a few medical specialists - without any significant results. Same goes with healings at Catholic sites - like Lourdes. Any miracle is verified, by a team of medical specialists. Limbs don’t grow back. Neither did they grow back - in the gospel accounts. You have to ask God why - when you see him.

There is only one God - the God of Isreal. But he has spoken and appeared, outside the Christian framework. We don’t know the parameters. But having an OPEN mind helps.

Let’s return to the Theosofest. You see all these vendors with signs. Some say healers, readers and shamans. And they have prices advertised. Perhaps they might have some reading or healing ability. But they are in it - for the money.

Then my Roman Catholic Northwestern PhD friend - meets me. And I take her to 2 Japanese healing light modalities, a Peruvian shamanic ceremony, and folks from the Vineyard Church - giving readings and healings. But there is a BIG difference. There is NO price tag. It’s free. Gratis. In other words, they are there - to provide a service to humanity. Same goes for the Roman Catholic priest, with the gift of healing…the Bruno Groening Circle of Friends…or the Native American medicine man - Russell 4 Eagles. Sure… All would accept donations. But there is no charge, for what they have to offer.

How do you know this healing isn’t a natural?
-how do you know for certain that it is? Where is your proof that this is not supernatural?

But you never, ever, see evidence of limbs growing back.

  • how do you know that? Have you seen or investigated such a thing? How can you be certain that it has not happened?

These are the types of stories that somehow are never verified. What was the mans name? Let me guess, you don’t know. Why would a Chinese man step foot in a church if he wasn’t a Christian anyway? So, like, why did he need the gospel? And if he did, why did he dissapear again, never to be seen? I imagine the church that gave him the gospel would give him a kinship with others there… When you start asking the questions the story falls apart and excuses are made, or rather judgments against the questioner. God always has a way out in the mind of some of his believers.

  • And yet, the story is true - as far as you know, right? How can you be certain that it did not happen exactly this way? **Asking ‘why’ a hundred times does not make a story fall apart - the burden of proof lies on you to prove the story wrong, not just cast aspersions. **

or rather judgments against the questioner.

  • Not making a judgment, Gabe - just questioning the questioner.

We’ve all had our disappointments with God; but we’ve grown up and realized that we don’t know everything, and that nobody else does either. But faith has many roots; a healthy scepticism is part of a healthy faith. sure, but there is much more to faith than that.

I think you are misunderstanding. I did type those out on my phone last night, so I don’t always go into great detail. What I am saying is that the conversation goes like this and note: This is NOT a straw man.

Claim: My sister had cancer and a tumor and said she had two months to live. We called the elders, laid hands on her and the tumor wasn’t even there on the next X-Ray.

Questioner: Do you have the before and after X-Ray scans?

Claiment: No, but I am sure if you call the hospital they might give it. They saw it!

Questioner: You know I can’t do that, HIPAA does not release medical records like that. I would think she would have a copy of both, as this is such a miraculous event.

Claiment: Well, she doesn’t.

Possible explanation 1 - Maybe the X-Ray’s were screwed up. Files at hospitals get mixed up frequently. Some of the most common. Did you know the one of the main reasons for deaths in hospitals is giving someone the wrong blood type? That is how often things are mixed up.

Possible explanation 2 - Maybe the story is a fabrication. Many people believe that a story, even if fabricated for the right reasons, is acceptable for the greater good. If they are convinced that God performs miracles like this for others, than another motivating story surely would not hurt anything, but would bring more glory to God. Look, you can’t deny people do this. They do it all the time, Christian or not.

Possible explanation 3 - The immune system response somehow took care of the tumor. No idea how.

Possible explanation 4 - The miracle happened.

Here is the thing, I don’t say miracles can’t happen. If I did, then the burden of proof shifts to me to prove it. But I can say that without evidence that such a miracle did happen, then the burden of proof does indeed lie on the person making the claim. If you claim “God healed me” then you need to provide evidence, that is, if you are trying to convince others of it. If you merely believe or think that to yourself, well, then there is no need to provide proof. You are free to think and believe as you like, provided it does not hurt others.

Now, for Paidion’s example, I recall (maybe I am incorrect on this) asking him who the person was. But if memory serves me right, no one ever seen this Chinese man again. So my whole question is this: Why would a Chinese man who never heard the gospel walk into a church? And if he did, it just so happens that the person speaking in tongues spoke the gospel to him. All fine and good… But no one knew his name, where he came from? And most of all, he never came back? Most people I know have a place in their heart for the person/church that brought them the good news. The thing is, you hear stories like Paidion’s all the time. I have heard many such stories. But in all cases that I have questioned, no proof can be obtained. Nothing tangible. Just hearsay and second hand testimony. If you study forensics and profiling (which, you are a republican, so I imagine you support profiling, no?) it is amazing what predictions we can make about people based on evidence and the human nature. Christian’s are not immune to this behavior and so embellishment is likely involved their stories as well and if you can believe it is a for a greater good, all the better for the embellishment. What I find so troubling is that Christian’s are hyper critical about everything except their faith and stories and people surrounding it. It is like a section that is off limits. To be clear, I am not saying all Christian’s do this. But many, the majority in my estimation do. No, I won’t back up that claim. That is my personal believe based on the encounters I have had with hundreds of Christian’s. Maybe it is limited to my area, I have no idea. People are people and Christian’s are no different.

You might not believe this, but even 3 years ago, I had the same exact reservations/skepticism. Nothing changed except my being vocal about it. Now, I don’t desire to be rude or obnoxious and I honestly don’t feel I am, but I feel that I am being made to feel that by some of your responses. I ask that you pretend I am a ‘seeker’ and treat me as such, because as noted before, my mind is hardly made up. As I learn new information, I adapt to it. I am ever learning and ever coming to different viewpoints on situations. But I ask that you don’t just assume I am some trouble-maker sniping from the sidelines. Almost all of my posts are asking for evidence of the claims.

There is zero hostility towards anyone who has faith in these things. I don’t think the person is dumb, or unintelligent. I also leave open the idea that God might have spoken to these people. Maybe he did. I can’t know what goes on inside of people’s head. I can only know what goes on in my head and the experiences that I have. For all I know God revealed himself to everyone except Gabe. I doubt it, but it doesn’t mean it isn’t true. That said, a healthy dose of skepticism is warranted, because other faiths are just as convinced as everyone here! Each person is convinced in their own mind that they are right and why shouldn’t they? They have their life and experiences to consult which differ from person to person.

But I do need to remind everyone, this IS a message board, and provided the rules state that we cannot challenge ideas (such like the introduction thread, which is clear) in certain threads, then we should be free to question, disagree with anything, provided we avoid ad hominem attacks. For the most part, I don’t think anyone has attacked someone else here. We are attacking ‘ideas’ not people. I also don’t particular like the idea of being considered ‘militant’ by you. Have you ever met a militant atheist? I’d be scared to see your reaction, as they are brutal… I don’t particularly like them at all. I see them identical to the hellfire fundies, like West Boro Baptist Church… Not good people. Not likeable, not kind, not anything.

I want to bring up an element here in a separate post that I feel is worthy of a response. I have no issues with the idea of God healing people. I think I made that clear in my previous post. God, if he exists, can do anything he wants, assuming he has no limits. Of course, there are indeed a lot of assumptions there, but let’s just say that I don’t think it is impossible. But I wanted to bring something up that we know.

Let’s go with our presupposition that God heals some people. Let’s take a case sample. Sally has cancer, she has lived a full life, has kids and generally has lived a long life. She is 70 now and has cancer. God performs a miracle and she is cured, lives another 15 years. Great, I am happy for Sally.

Meanwhile, across the world, a mother gives birth to her 4th child, lost a lot of blood, the father died earlier by an infectious disease. People are praying, but the mother dies. She leaves 4 children without a mother or father! How tragic… Sally was near the end of her natural life already, but this mother had neither the money or means that Sally had, didn’t live a full life and not only did she suffer horrible, but her children suffer horribly. Now I ask, why? I know the answer from most Christians is “God has it all figured out” - The trouble is, I can’t accept that and I find that a coping mechanism. It is akin to saying “Don’t ask, and just keep on keeping on” and practically speaking, that is all the theist or atheist can do. Neither has the solution to this “Why?”.

Let’s take another example:

A Christian prays to get into ‘College’ and she gets in! Praise God! Not only that, she gets a scholarship! Never has this girl wanted for anything, and here she wins the lottery with God. He grants her, her request. So God blesses someone with $25,000+ to help pay for school, while children are praying for the next meal across the world. No meals comes and they die. Does someone really believe that God provided that college fund and decided not to provide food for poor starving children? Really? Seriously, please think on that and explain to me why God should do that and why he is right in that? My opinion at this stage is hence: God didn’t answer the scholarship prayer. She worked hard on her grades, was granted the scholarship by people. God had no role in this, other than being the creator of people who made the decisions. Likewise, God had no role in the starving children’s death, other than being the creator of all. People had that role… Society had the role in their deaths by the action of doing nothing.

From my limited knowledge and view, if God exists, it must be as the creator who stands from afar letting his machine work itself out. Whether he rights the wrongs in the end, or whether our existence is no different than that of a basic cell that dies, I have no idea. It is interesting that the writer of Ecclesiastes is basically a deist. That has been my favorite book for a very long time and it still is. Presuming Solomon wrote it (even if he didn’t I care not), then I guess I feel a kinship to him, because I see it no different than the way he saw it. We are granted life, we don’t know if we have life in the next, so enjoy our days and work hard for that is God’s blessing/gift.