The Evangelical Universalist Forum

God does not create, commit, or allow evil!

qaz wrote:
I wonder if Murray has a theory on the verses that say God commanded Israel to slaughter children and infants. I have a hard time accepting the idea that God actually did, but I’ve yet to read a compelling theory that explains how these verses ended up in the Bible if God didn’t in fact command these slaughters.

In his book “Don’t blame God” John Schoenheit gives examples of how the OT writers used certain literary devices like “metonymy.” The White House decided that dogs s/b granted the right to vote! Obviously the White House is a building but this method of substituting one noun for another is a common device OT writers used in relation to God and Satan according to this book,

Awesome sauce??? I’ve never heard of that expression before, but I like it, Steve!! :smiley:

LLC, It’s a teenage girl expression but if the shoe fits i’ll wear it!

Steve7150 wrote:
If a plane flying over the ocean suddenly has all of it’s engines stall and it hurdles toward the ocean, how would God’s intervention to save everyone be coercion?

Who’s saying that God’s intervention WOULD be coercion? Not Richard Murray and not I. I have not said that God cannot save a believer from harm regardless of Steve Gregg’s false accusation that I have. I was mistaken, however, in saying in the above post and also on the other forum that Richard Murray’s explanation solves the problem of evil. I should have said “partially solves the problem of evil.”

OK Paidion so why then wouldn’t God intervene and save the folks on the plane? I don’t see any free will issue, do you?

It was not meant to support the non-violent God hypothesis (unless possibly indirectly). It was meant to support the progressive revelation of God’s character and purpose. The earlier Hebrew view was that Satan was an agent of God who couldn’t act without God’s permission, and so when Satan acted violently, it was considered tantamount to God acting violently. But many years later when 1 Chronicles was written, and right through to New Testament times, Satan was considered to act independently and in opposition to God.

So in earlier Hebrew times, when Satan brought about an evil, it was said that God brought it about, since it was believed to amount to the same thing since God “allowed” Satan to do it, supposedly for a higher purpose. But Richard Murray believes that God doesn’t “allow” evil in any sense of the word. The most effective way to understand Murray’s position is to read his book.

One more thing to ponder concerning the Tree of Life. If Jehovah knew of their turning as a fact before He created them, then the creation of this tree is a superfluous act of creation at best, and a deliberately misleading act at worst, because, for His knowing as a fact of their turning, He would also know that He would have to ban them from eating its fruits! So, why create it in the first place, unless He always intended for them to have access to it? This idea then makes the creation of this tree an act of optimism that their trust in Him would prevail! Thus, it is indicated that He could not have fore-known their turning when He created them, exactly because He created this tree alongside the other one.

Eli,
Putting aside a couple of references that Jesus sacrifice was pre-ordained before the foundation of the world and granting that “Open Theism” is true i find it hard to believe God had no idea what would happen. Additionally why not just forgive them, why curse Eve, why curse the ground with thorns and thistles, why appoint Adam as our representative and in effect punish us for Adam’s transgression? We are told we need to be more then conquerors, we need to be overcomers, we need to put on the full armour of God. So it sounds to me like we sorta want Heaven on earth right now but God himself has decided we need to develop our spiritual muscles by overcoming evil. To overcome evil it has to exist in this age. Not a popular message but to me it seems to line up with reality and with scripture better then any other idea.

Just came across this sentence in Richard Murray’s book:

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Here are my thoughts. I believe God did intend them to eventually eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil—but not while they were immature. That is the reason He forbade it. There’s nothing intrinsically wrong with knowing the difference between good and evil. In fact the writer to the Hebrews indicates that it’s a sign of maturity:

But solid food is for the mature, for those who have their powers of discernment trained by constant practice to distinguish good from evil. (Hebrews 5:14 ESV)

God God never forbade them from eating from the Tree of Life, but there is no evidence that they ever did so. My thought is that God wanted them to mature through receiving life from that Tree.

But the Serpent wanted them to do it the other way around; eat right away from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. It’s not always with bad things with which Satan tempts people, but He often tempts them to use good things in the wrong way—money, sex, food, etc.They acted according to the Serpent’s suggestion and ate from the tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil , but were not mature enough to handle that knowledge. They were mature physically, but not mentally and emotionally. So God drove them out of the Garden, and prevented them from returning so that they would not eat from the Tree of Life and perpetuate their lives in their fallen condition.

So God drove them out of the Garden, and prevented them from returning so that they would not eat from the Tree of Life and perpetuate their lives in their fallen condition.

Well i have asked before but why couldn’t God simply forgive them, explain to them the error of their ways, warn them about Satan and press the reset button and start over? Also why do we pay for Adam’s transgression when we were not involved?

Do you think Genesis was written to answer all those question? At the time it was ‘written’ - which you understand was looong after the tradition had been orally passed down - the story used other sources from older pagan myths, and changed them to display the vast difference between Yahweh and the multitude of other and older ‘gods’ and heroes.

I think we ask too much out of a few chapters that were not intended to address our 21st century concerns.
Ach, just $.02

Do you think Genesis was written to answer all those question?

No , but i think people can form questions and have thoughts and opinions about it. Plus other parts of the bible reference it so it kinda forms a thread going all the way to Revelation! (Paradise lost & paradise restored).

Never mind.

You are right about the relationship between the Genesis account and us today. I’m with you there. :smiley:

In my view, The Genesis story is the very beginning, :open_mouth: of a story that ends in Revelation. The story of a people called Israel, that all of us are either part of or are brought into in one way or another.

In what sense to we pay? Do you refer to the fact that death has been passed on to all of humanity?

If so, I don’t think that fact is a matter of “paying” but a matter of genetics.

I agree with all this.

I agree and as I understand it… it is this sense or thought of discernment in the judicial sense that lay behind the command not to partake thereof. I don’t see this as so much a moral issue as it was an integrity issue, i.e., could/would Adam be trusted to obey the command given? Adam was not in a place, at that time, maturity-wise to be determining, judging or differentiating on matters of “good and evil” — that was God’s prerogative, power, position and place to fill, not Adam’s — at least not at that time.

On the matter of… ‘does God create, commit and allow evil’? I say unequivocally, YES He can… albeit not of the sinister sinful sense which invariably is what so many think “evil” is said to be. That understanding when applied carte blanch leads to all manner of prevalent gymnastics to have God NOT doing “evil”, where in fact certain texts plainly say otherwise.

IF we understand “evil” in terms of “calamity” and NOT some sentient malevolent entity then it is clear in Scripture God indeed DID bring “calamity” i.e., evil or disastrous outcomes on certain ones… usually in terms of punishment on His disobedient children OR on those who unjustly troubled them.

The two most common words rendered “evil” across the Greek texts are… <πονηρός> ponēros and <κακός> kakos — both are mostly rendered “evil” / “wicked” / “calamity”. Both are used in the same sense in this prophecy about Jesus…

In the Genesis account of “good and evil” the word used is <πονηρός> ponēros. However in Isa 45:7 it is <κακός> kakos

This cannot be white-washed to mean something other than an evil outcome, i.e., a “calamity” — which indeed is the word many modern translations use here for <κακός> kakos. But either way as it says… “I the Lord do all these things.

Paidion, I have to disagree. When God says not do something, He means don’t do it. We are not to steal, cheat, lie, murder, worship other gods, hate our brothers, etc. etc. I can’t think of anything that God commands us not to do that we can then do later on after we mature. In fact, when we become mature, we know better than to do what He tells us not to.

Question… how should Christians make conclusions about truth and what is true? If a Biblical statement does not square with my personal rules or reasons or experience then what options do we have? There are many comments in this post accepting or rejecting various propositions. However, what are your ground rules for determining truth? The subject of God’s sovereignty over all things, including evil, has been debated in this forum over and over. Yet how are we to gain ground in actually persuading one another and growing in unity?

Options when Biblical statements appear to conflict with my personal reason, judgment, and experience

  1. We could question whether the Biblical statement is truly God’s revealed word or an injection, such as KJV 1 John 5:7.

  2. We could simply acknowledge that God’s ways are higher than our ways and subject to Biblical statements over our own reason.

  3. We could patiently wait for more understanding and experience without making premature conclusions.

  4. We could ask, is there obvious one case where God or His ways are beyond our understanding, if there is one, then there could be more.

  5. We could ask is it safer to trust my own judgment of matters or trust God’s word against my own judgment.

  6. We could work toward interpretations that honor the whole of Scripture yet without bending or offending Scripture.

  7. More ideas…?

It may be that agreement is not possible if we do not agree on the basic ground rules of how to determine what is true.

If we could agree on the ground rules, then Christian theologians, Christian philosophers and churches - both historical and contemporary - would have already done so :exclamation: :slight_smile:

As far as evil and suffering goes, we can find good answers…From professional Christian theologians and philosophers, both historical and contemporary. And folks can find the answer or answers, that satisfy them. At least, until God reveals the big picture to everyone :slight_smile:

As far as I know regarding lotteries, everyone wins a prize - if they pick 5 out of 6 numbers (i.e. a good answer). And we all win the big prize, when God reveals all 6 winning numbers (i.e. the definitive answer). :laughing:

That’s the ticket. I am sinful, moronic, and ignorant. The Bible is none of those things. :slight_smile:

Steve, thanks for the opportunity to clarify. I’ve got a bit of time before my first class today and wished to offer you my thoughts on your inquiry.

The first thing to note is that I did not put aside those, “…references that Jesus sacrifice was pre-ordained before the foundation of the world…” I discovered those references to which you are referring to have been interpreted, and thus translated, in the light of Augustine’s fatalistic ideology; an ideology that in no way resembles the ideology of the first believers, which was the ideology of Universal restoration held to for as long as Greek was the language of scripture in the minds of the first and second century Christian apologists, not Latin.

Most of us are here because we recognized that the Latin interprets into scripture an eternal and everlasting hell of conscious torment, against the Original Greek. So, likewise was Augustine’s fatalistic ideology interpreted into the Latin translation, which became the defacto translation for our English Bibles. Augustine was a profligate who later embraced Manichaeisim before he became a Christian monk, highly influential in improving the Latin translation. That, in essence, is when Christianity changed into a religion, because Augustinianisim gave support to the developing divide of the ecclessia into clergy and laity.

In short, that understanding led to me becoming an, “Open Theist,” long before I knew there was a name for what I came to understand.

Hermano’s been writing a lot about how deadly fatalism is to understanding, so there’s no need for me to add any more of my pairings of pennies to that topic.

Now, I have never implied, much less said, that, “…God had no idea what would happen.” And I’m sure you do find that statement hard to believe, even as I would.

Instead, what I have been attempting to point out is that Jehovah could not know the outcome of a choice between trust and distrust that Jehovah had set before them.

Either one of two things was going to happen. That’s it.

Thus I am wishing to communicate that Jehovah put His trust in an optimistic outcome, while being aware that an unfavorable one was just as possible.

Therefore, the only thing He didn’t know was the one thing He couldn’t know, the outcome of their temptation to distrust. They were sentient and innocent, is my contention, and so the first two would set the course for human history to unfold either one way or another.

And don’t you know Jehovah knew what He would have to do, if they failed?

And that cost Him a lot. He has sacrificed much, including having to endure feeling His own anger and remorse at the evil we do, while enduring the same heart-break we endure that come from the Pain and Suffering we create, long, long before Jesus went to the cross as a Divine Human Being to enable us all to, one-by-one, be made complete, beginning, first, with those who will choose to love and trust Him. These first ones He fore-knows because He can read our hearts. And it is these that desire to be good that He elects to receive His grace which leads to an acceptance of faith by His working all things together for the good of them - oftentimes against the actions of other’s who’s actions are from hearts that Jehovah does not favor for having to know them.

Do you understand that every evil we create by our actions, every atrocity, every heinousness, every brutality, every depravity, every immorality, every malfeasance we commit around the globe, every single day, Jehovah feels - as well as the one’s that affect us - and He cares.

Do you think you could endure that kind of intimacy with human beings?

So, “…why not just forgive them, why curse Eve, why curse the ground with thorns and thistles, why appoint Adam as our representative and in effect punish us for Adam’s transgression?”

First of all, forgiveness does not equate to immediate restoration. From a human perspective, the purpose of forgiveness is to restore a damaged relationship, but it depends on both parties to forgive, which means both parties likely contributed something to the Pain and Suffering they endured for being in a relationship. We are weak in conscience and so our relationships suffer. Therefore, the need for our forgiving one another is a direct result of the reality of who we are.

Thus I see that, from God’s perspective, forgiveness could do nothing about the reality of what they now were - human beings who knew the difference between right and wrong, good and evil, but who will now have to struggle mightily to be good. My witness to this is Jehovah’s words to Cain when Jehovah was pleased with Abel’s offering, but not Cain’s:

Why would Jehovah of spoken this way to Cain, encouraging Him to resist the sin of not doing well and thus endure it’s consequent feeling of anger for not being accepted by his God, if Jehovah knew, as a fact, that Cain was later going to murder his brother? Thus, this knowledge of good and evil was now permanently and irretrievably in mankind. Yet, it was not the powerful thing Jehovah intended it to be, and so, in the likeness of Cain, human beings begin their struggle between what we want and what is right to do, rather than living from the opposite effect of the fruit in them which would have been that what we want is what is right to do, an effect that would have been made possible for enduring the temptation and then eating the fruit, with Jehovah’s permission.

And is that not our restoration? Is that not the work that will be annulled in us when all that Jehovah has said is done?

This knowledge was now permanently and irretrievably in mankind, so I said.

And here’s why: some things can only be done at the very beginning, after that, whatever the outcome, there is no possibility of going back, of, “pressing the reset button,” because the reset button would be the killing of the first two - and all of us would never exist and Jehovah’s purpose in creating human beings would be thwarted, permanently.

Thus, Resurrection becomes the thing wherein He will catch the conscience of every being.

You said, “We are told we need to be more then conquerors, we need to be overcomers, we need to put on the full armour of God.”

Yes, indeed, WE are told to do this because that is relevant to the reality of who we are - people who know the difference between right and wrong, good and evil - and yet, apart from being re-sired of Jehovah (born anew), are unable to realize the ideal world such knowledge creates in us.

And that is why I say, over and over again because it’s so very true,

Be good! It is after all what you were created to be!

And what’s wrong with thinking like that?

Dennis!