HFPZ said:
I’m with you.
Amen. I believe in miracles! And they happen every day
HFPZ said:
I’m with you.
Amen. I believe in miracles! And they happen every day
Hermano, I don’t believe that prophecy (spiritual wisdom) comes by way of divination as in some magical powers or crystal ball stuff. This is warned against in the Bible. As you mentioned in Acts, the case of knowing of the famine to come, there are many noted famines in the Bible. Famines have occurred in the past and still occur today. Besides which, what kind of famine are they talking about? It could be literal or spiritual as in a lack of manna from heaven meaning people have basically lost the Spirit of God. In any case, if one has wisdom he/she would be able to see it coming as there will be signs. Literally speaking, if people are not working the fields, rotating the crops, making sure there is enough water supply, planting in proper soil, diversifying so as not to put all the eggs in one basket per se etc.etc., then yes, there will be a famine. Spiritually speaking, if people are not following the ways of God, hearts are waxing cold, greed and dishonesty are running rampant, families and communities are falling apart etc. etc. then again there will be a famine. Take the housing market crash for example. If one did not see this coming, I would say they had no wisdom.
As for the Anti-Christ, there are many antichrists. These are the people who do not follow God. They come and go as well. I also believe there are many Christs, meaning anointed ones of God.
Speaking of evolution, I don’t see much evolving going on, as in advancing into a higher intellectual being. Have we gotten any smarter spiritually or even increased in knowledge? I would say not. People today are pulling the same crap they were thousands of years ago. And as for knowledge, how many of us know how to grow crops, pluck a chicken, make candles, milk a cow etc. etc. I think if all the grocery stores went out of business, we would basically starve. No doubt,we all know how to push buttons to get instantaneous results. From what I understand, monkeys can do this. I think knowledge that once was becomes lost and is replaced by knowledge of other things.
or
youtube.com/watch?v=IOYyCHGWJq4
Well, let’s look at Open Theism , via the world of quantum physics. I share this BBC article today on Twitter:
‘Dead or alive’ cat in physics top 10
This article summarizes some important experimental validations, of themes in Quantum physics. I’ll just share the one regarding the cat:
For folks who like to know more about social media projections in 2017, here’s one I shared also - on Twitter today:
Before Davo responds, perhaps you both should read this article:
I am thoroughly convinced that the plain and literal reading of the Bible, even considered as inerrant, contradicts the scientific consensus on only a single point: the biological evolution of man from non-humans, which is precluded by a literal reading of Genesis 2:7 and 2:22.
This was also the view of the early 20th-century Fundamentalists, who wrote The Fundamentals (from which we get our term “fundamentalist”) in 1910-15. They believed that the Bible either outright taught or was at least consistent with the universe and planet Earth being billions of years old, of life being billions of years old, of the biological evolution of plants and animals, and of Noah’s Flood being a local flood that killed all of mankind except for the eight on the ark. Their only beef with the scientists of their day was over the biological evolution of mankind.
The old-fashioned Protestant Fundamentalists did not subscribe to Young Earth Creationism, which is more an outgrowth in the latter half of the 20th century of the theories of George McCready Price, who tried to give scientific justification to the flood visions of the Seventh-Day Adventist prophetess, Ellen G. White. YEC, far from being “that old-time religion”, is a new-fangled thing.
The old-fashioned Protestant Fundamentalists did not subscribe to Young Earth Creationism, which is….a new-fangled thing.
Well, call me “new-fangled”!!
**
[size=120]Speaking of conspiracies, have you seen “Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed”[/size]? **
Kevin Miller XI’s 2008 documentary film [embedded below] starring Ben Stein contends that the mainstream science establishment suppresses academics who believe they see evidence of intelligent design (ID) in nature and who criticize evidence supporting Darwinian evolution and the modern evolutionary synthesis as part of a scientific conspiracy to keep God out of the nation’s laboratories and classrooms.
The scientific theory of evolution is portrayed by the film as contributing to communism, fascism, atheism, eugenics and, in particular, Nazi atrocities in the Holocaust. Richard Dawkins is one of the people interviewed. The film is in the top 20 highest grossing documentaries since 1982. (Wikipedia)
( or, if it doesn’t load above, just go to youtube.com/watch?v=V5EPymcWp-g )
**Expelled was certainly better received by evangelicals than Kevin Miller’s later Hellbound?**, which questions the traditional hell of eternal torment. If you haven’t seen Hellbound?, I love that one, too!
[size=120]Again, I believe spiritual deception knows no barriers, whether in the arena of religion, politics, or the hard sciences.[/size]
Blessings.
I certainly do not believe that life could evolve without God controlling all the atoms.
There is a certain irony in contemplating that evolution with God is easy, while without God it is basically impossible.
…It seems so highly unlikely that dinosaurs existed during the time of humans. If so, surely some glyphs would display this? Young earthars like to demonize the opposition…
Like multiple, diverse Flood legends from around the world, there are multiple diverse fire-breathing dragon and dinosaur legends from around the world. Are they based in fact, “from way back when”? Did man and dinosaurs coexist?
Gabe, I linked to ***Ancient Dinosaur Depictions***, which shows numerous depictions of dinosaurs, including the Acámbaro (ah KOMM bah roh) figurines here in Mexico. There is a lot of evidence there that man and giant reptiles indeed lived contemporaneously. One could scrutinize that picture-rich page all day long.
But I wanted to add some possible evidence for dinosaurs ***from the Bible itself. ***
On the fifth day, we read, “So God created the great creatures of the sea and every living thing with which the water teems and that moves about in it, according to their kinds…And God saw that it was good.” Gen 1:21.
Would this include some reptiles, and marine dinosaurs? I suggest here that if everything was “good” at this point, then these and other physical beings were not yet violent or carnivorous at that point. With help from sinful Satan, violence and physical death came into the physical world through man’s sin.
Of course, the creatures who came to Noah’s ark did not have to all be adults: they could have been infants or juveniles. And genetically, like Adam and Eve themselves, the various Bible “kinds” had a lot more potential genetic variation back then than today. (Genetic drift causes random fixation of alleles and the loss of variation.)
We must remember the term “dinosaur” didn’t come into use until 1841. And, as far as we know, dinosaurs are extinct in 2017.
Behemoth: Job 40.
In Job 40:15–24, God describes a great beast to Job, a creature Job was familiar with. This great animal, called “behemoth,” is described as “the chief of the ways of God,” perhaps the biggest land animal God had created. Impressively, he moved his tail like a cedar tree! Although some Bible commentaries say this may have been an elephant or hippopotamus, the description actually fits that of a dinosaur like Brachiosaurus. Elephants and hippos certainly do not have tails like cedar trees! (From Answers in Genesis.)
Leviathan: Job 41, Psalms 74:14, 104:25-26, Is 27:1.
Leviathan has the following attributes according to Job chapter 41, Psalm 104:25,26 and Isaiah 27:1. This is only a partial listing—just enough to make the point.
- “No one is so fierce that he would dare stir him up.”
- “Who can open the doors of his face, with his terrible teeth all around?”
- “His rows of scales are his pride, shut up tightly as with a seal; one is so near another that no air can come between them; they are joined one to another, they stick together and cannot be parted.”
- “His sneezings flash forth light, and his eyes are like the eyelids of the morning. Out of his mouth go burning lights; sparks of fire shoot out. Smoke goes out of his nostrils, as from a boiling pot and burning rushes. His breath kindles coals, and a flame goes out of his mouth.”
- “Though the sword reaches him, it cannot avail; nor does spear, dart, or javelin. He regards iron as straw, and bronze as rotten wood. The arrow cannot make him flee; slingstones become like stubble to him. Darts are regarded as straw; he laughs at the threat of javelins.”
- “On earth there is nothing like him, which is made without fear.”
- Leviathan “played” in the “great and wide sea” (a paraphrase of Psalm 104 verses 25 and 26—get the exact sense by reading them yourself).
- Leviathan is a “reptile [a] that is in the sea.” (Isaiah 27:1) [a] Note: The word translated “reptile” here is the Hebrew word tanniyn. This shows that “Leviathan” was also a “tanniyn” (dragon).
And now for the key ingredient: fire. It is hard to read Job 41:18-21 without realizing the Bible is telling us that Leviathan breathes fire. That alone will eliminate almost every living animal. Yes, there is one animal like that in today’s world. It is called a bombardier beetle. This beetle is a native of Central America, and has a nozzle in its hind end that acts like a little flame thrower. It sprays a high-temperature jet of gas (fueled by hydroquinones and hydrogen peroxide with oxidative enzymes) for protection. Now, if a Central American beetle can do it, so could Leviathan. By the way, crocodiles and alligators are out of the picture on this one, don’t you agree?
Before we leave the topic of fire, there are two more notes you may find interesting:
- The history of every culture is filled with stories of fire-breathing dragons. If you think about it, in all the past ages wouldn’t someone have made up a story of a fire-breathing lion or something? Nobody did because the dragon stories are based on truth, and only “dragons” breathed fire. It is easy to imagine Leviathan as a member of the dragon (tanniyn) family. (Plus, Isaiah 27:1 strongly implies this connection.)
- Many fossil dinosaur skulls contain unexplained, empty passages. Scientists have not been able to guess the reason for these passages. Would it make sense that some dinosaurs used these passages as “gas tanks” for the combustible mixture used to “breathe fire?” We believe it does.
(Taken from Dinosaurs, by Todd Strandberg.)
Finally, regarding the Acámbaro figurines of Mexico (discovered about 90 minutes from my niece’s house in the state of Guanajuato), below I embed a fascinating discussion by Dr. Don Patton. I confess he is not the most engaging speaker; nevertheless, you will find the story that he shares of Waldemar Julsrud, amateur German archeologist, to be absolutely fascinating. Please take the time to watch the video below in its entirety. I promise you won’t regret it.
Certainly, the story is shrouded in obscurity and controversy. In Mexico, as in the U.S., there is no room for the Bible in education generally, or in the sciences, particularly. This story has a heavy lid on it. (I wager none of you had never heard of this find. Certainly no one in my family ever had. Is there possibly a spiritual element to that? Man coexisting with dinosaurs is anathema to the predominate paradigm of Darwinian Evolution.)
Dinosaur Figurines, Fact or Fraud - Dr. Don Patton:
Speaking of archeology, another of my favorite amateur archeologists was Ron Wyatt, an anesthetist from Tennessee. (And yes, Randy, he was a Seventh Day Adventist, although he finally left them.)
Professor Lennart Möller (of the Karolinska Institute in Sweden), with whom I have corresponded, has corroborated some of Wyatt’s discoveries, including his evidence of the Red Sea Crossing.
Behemoth moved his tail like a cedar tree. The text does not say that Behemoth had a tail that looked like a cedar tree.
Thank you for posting the video about the Acámbaro figurines. I watched roughly the first half, and I hope to watch the second half tomorrow.
I already had a slight familiarity with these figurines. Something that has long puzzled me about them, however, is the almost untroubled assumption that if the figurines are genuinely ancient, then they prove that dinosaurs and mankind coexisted. That assumption certainly does not follow. Assuming their genuineness, why could we not posit that the figurines’ ancient makers were familiar with dinosaur skeletons and made models of what they thought those dead beasts looked like in life? After all, that’s what contemporary toy makers do, but nobody assumes that these toy makers have seen living dinosaurs.
Thank you for posting the video about the Acámbaro figurines. I watched roughly the first half, and I hope to watch the second half tomorrow.
I already had a slight familiarity with these figurines. Something that has long puzzled me about them, however, is the almost untroubled assumption that if the figurines are genuinely ancient, then they prove that dinosaurs and mankind coexisted. That assumption certainly does not follow. Assuming their genuineness, why could we not posit that the figurines’ ancient makers were familiar with dinosaur skeletons and made models of what they thought those dead beasts looked like in life? After all, that’s what contemporary toy makers do, but nobody assumes that these toy makers have seen living dinosaurs.
Geoffrey, I’m so glad you are taking the time to watch that video above!
As to ancient people seeing dinosaur fossils, and then from these creating imaginative depictions, I think it certainly possible, but unlikely, because there are so many pictograph and art examples, from so many different places.
Here are some interesting examples of written narratives:
Gaius Plinius Secundus (“Pliny the Elder”) 23-79 AD, Natural History, Book Eight:
Chapter XI
“the Elephant hee falls downe dead as conquered, and with his heavie weight crusheth and squeaseth the dragon that his wound and wreathed about him.”Chapter XII: “…the dragons ware hereof, entangle and snarle his feet and legges first with their taile: the Elephants on the other side, undoe those knots wiht their trunke as with a hand…the principall thing the dragons make at is the eye…Now these dragons are so big withall, that they be able to receive ALL the Elephants bloud. Thus they are sucked drie, untill they fall down dead…”
Chapter XIIII
“Megasthenes writeth, that there be serpents among the Indians to that bignesse, that they are able to swallow stags or buls all whole…Attilius Regulaus, generall under the Romanes, during the warres against the Carthaginians, assailed a Serpent neere the river Bagrada, which caried in length 120 foot…”Et al. (See e.g, here)
Marco Polo 1254–1324, The Travels of Marco Polo, the Venetian, by Marco Polo:
From Leaving the city of Yacho, and travelling ten days in a westerly direction, you reach the province of Karazan, which is also the name of its chief city… Here are seen huge serpents, ten paces in length, and ten spans in the girt of its body. At the fore part, near the head, they have two short legs, having three claws like those of a tiger, with eyes larger than a fourpenny loaf (pane da quattro denari) and very glaring. The jaws are wide enough to swallow a man, the teeth are large and sharp, and their whole appearance is so formidable, that neither man, nor any kind of animal, can approach them without terror.
[How they are hunted]…By their motion in this way along the shore, and their vast weight, they make a deep depression, as if a heavy beam had been drawn along the sands. Those whose employment is to hunt them observe the track by which they are most frequently accustomed to go, and fix into the ground several pieces of wood armed with sharp iron spikes, which they cover with the sand in such a manner as not to be perceptible. When therefore the animals make their way towards the places they usually haunt, they are wounded by these instruments, and speedily killed.
And here is a nice table I just found, with additional material of some more possible evidence from more recent times:
Table of Evidence of Dinosaur Encounters with Man
And let’s not forget an engrossing chapter called, “[size=115]Dinosaurs from Anglo-Saxon and other Records[/size],” from After the Flood, by Bill Cooper. (This book was recommended to me a while ago by “Pilgrim” of this forum, and can be found online, or in pdf format)
At a minimum, I find these examples intriguing food for thought, and hope you do, too.
Oops, here’s another interesting possibility:
Eyewitnesses to Extinction: Testimonies to the Life and Death of Dinosaurs
Blessings.
Paidion - do you think that Yahweh actually spoke those words to the prophet?
Yep
Paidion, on what basis do you believe the Bible teaches universal salvation if it’s impossible to know if creatures will choose to be saved?
God is able to strongly influence people if He so desires. I believe He will correct people post-mortem in “the Lake of Fire” (the fire of God’s LOVE) and that he will also manifest the completed Sons of God and send them to the people who will be in this place (or condition) of correction— who will have been resurrected to condemnation (John 5:29). These Sons of God will be sent as a witness to them.
Those who are being corrected, continue to have free will. They will not be forced to repent or to submit to the Lordship of the Anointed One. Perhaps some of them will hold out for a long time. But, in being subject to this correction, are they capable of holding out FOREVER? If any of them are, then they must have wills as strong as that of God. I doubt that that would be the case.
I read an article today in Newsweek about the discovery of a “living fossil” ancient shark still swimming around, believed to have remained “unevolved” after “at least 80 million years” because of a poor diet…
A BBC reporter “dubbed it a ‘monster of the deep,’ and…the first scientist to study the frilled shark thought its snake-like movements may have inspired sailors’ stories of sea serpents.”
Newsweek: Prehistoric, Dinosaur-era Shark With Insane Teeth Found Swimming Off Coast Of Portugal
.
qaz
"]…When I think about our universe running its course for 14 billion years…
Measurements of time are based on suppositions. A redshift occurs whenever a light source moves away from an observer. The Red Shift used in astronomy to support Big Bang supposes a constant rate of expansion, going out from an initial explosion of all matter. But some scientists believe there was an initial rapid expansion in the first seconds at a very accelerated rate, before the steady rate that is now observed began.
Many years ago, in a secular science magazine, I read a physicist arguing that almost the entire distance outward currently reached by the celestial bodies could have been attained in the first milliseconds after an initial explosion, before those bodies decelerated to their current sub-lightspeed steady velocity. And he had math that showed his model to be feasible. Can’t find it now. But I’ve seen this again from others, since then. For example: “The Inflation Theory proposes a period of extremely rapid (exponential) expansion of the universe during its first few moments. It was developed around 1980 to explain several puzzles with the standard Big Bang theory, in which the universe expands relatively gradually throughout its history.” Suddenly we can go from 14 billion to a several thousand years, depending on the model.
Also, Red Shift assumes the speed of light is a constant, it assumes light has always traveled at the same rate, and it assumes that the light has not traveled through anything that may change its speed and/or appearance. But physicists have succeeded in both speeding up, and slowing down the speed of light! (See here, here, and here.)
Einstein hypothesized that at the speed of light, time stops. And that at greater than the speed of light, one could move back and forth in time. (I believe that the book of Revelation shows that the author, John, went forward in time.)
Radiocarbon dating techniques used in geology and archeology assume the atmosphere has had the same Carbon 14 concentration in the past as now. And it assumes a constant decay rate. However, there is evidence that radioactive decay rates and concentrations have not been constant in the past. Again, you can go from billions of years, to thousands, depending on your suppositions.
I think you would agree that it would be impossible for anyone to provide real scientific evidence for the origin of time, space, and matter. To discuss something’s origin, we must go beyond time, space, and matter, which takes us outside the realm of science.
Blessings.
Hermano - since I’m out of my area of expertise on this subject, I asked a good friend and a man of incredible learning, who I know is of some contrary views, to respond.
This is NOTHING personal, ok? It’s only meant to sharpen up one another’s thinking.
From Jim Gentry:
1st paragraph- Hubble’s observation of the redshift of galaxies merely showed that the universe was expanding. It was not suggested that the expansion rate was constant. Quite the opposite in fact…,there was much conjecture as to whether gravity should stop the expansion and further pull everything back into a “big crunch” or whether the velocity would overcome gravity. No constant rate was imagined by anyone I’m aware of. The “inflation” hypothesis is suggested because it has explanatory ability about how an extremely even expansion coalesced into stars & galaxies, not because it has been demonstrated. (Also at 10^-43 seconds, the “event horizon,” when our current laws of physics came into being, no information is available prior to that as to the state of things.) There is no “steady state that is now observed” (see above) as “dark energy” is accelerating the expansion. “Dark energy” is that “space density expansion force” discovered around 1997, where space that is sufficiently distant from a gravity source itself expands, causing, currently, an accelerating universe. Prior to this phenomena becoming extant it is thought that gravity probably was slowing the expansion til this transition point was reached. We are now in an accelerating expansion.
2ond paragraph-is a remembered renditionfrom an article by “a physicist” that “almost the entire distance reached by the celestial bodies could have been attained in the first milliseconds after an initial explosion.” This (as written) has enormous masses traveling at speeds billions of times faster than light, before “decelerating” to their current “light speed steady velocity.” Stars & galaxies did this? They are currently traveling at the speed of light?
“Suddenly we can go from 14 billion to several thousand years” Let’s see…, what happened to the centrifugal forces of the masses coalescing into galaxies during these fantastic speeds? This paragraph makes no sense whatsoever!
3rd paragraph-Physicists have indeed caused light to slow…, by providing interventions not extant naturally. The 1987 supernova provided observed proof that light is not slowing down in the universe. Triangulation from the nova to Earth and from the nova to a distant reflective cloud, and from there to earth provided the observable phenomena that light traveled without slowing down over the different distances.
4th paragraph- What happened to the masses in paragraph one traveling at billions of times the speed of light? Where in time did they land? Our time dimension has been shown to be relative to matter/energy…, part & parcel of it.
I’m not aware that Einstein suggested that at above light speeds we could move forward & back in “time.” I think he said that nothing (with mass) could travel faster than light…, rather.
5th paragraph-Radio carbondating is useless for anything older than 5-20 thousand years, or for something that was never alive. Other elemental half-lives must be used, such as uranium to lead, for estimations in geologic time.
He is right that original contents cannot be confirmed, but neither are the laws of physics chaotic. The burden of proof would seem to be on him. I suggest the measurements are reasonable estimates, most of the time.
Closing paragraph- I don’t agree…, time, space and matter did originate. When it did so can be reasonably estimated at 13.7 billion years ±300 million. Expansion rate (YES!) and other factors. Causes are anther matter, which is what he means, I’m sure.
“The earth is young because some have posited questions? And because my favorite interpretation of my favorite translation is not to be questioned?
Interesting Dave. Today I found an interesting article at bit.ly/2DoEKwy entitled Why Adding Milk To Your Scrambled Eggs Is a Mistake. The article suggested using butter. But I’ll bet the majority of professional cooks - still use milk. Along will the professional cooking schools and fancy restaurants, still, continue to use milk. Because milk is in our collective mentality. And it’s NOT going away - anytime soon.
Same goes for scientific ideas - disproving or proving something. When our collective scientific consensus - buys into an idea… If something is “earth-shattering” (like Einstien’s equation of E=MC**2), then the professionals of the world - would react swiftly and violently. We will either see the scientific community praising it, denouncing it - or some combination thereof. And we will see brilliant scientists with Ph.D. degrees…perhaps from Ivy League schools…coming up with reproducible experiments - to either prove or disprove it.
And I (as a layman), will see these discussions filtered down, to places like quora.com. Where questions would be raised and ideas shared - usually by folks with Ph.D. degrees.
This is more a critic of Hermano’s presentation - then Dave’s.
So in the meantime, I’ll continue to make my scrambled eggs - with milk.
Hermano - since I’m out of my area of expertise on this subject, I asked a good friend and a man of incredible learning, who I know is of some contrary views, to respond.
This is NOTHING personal, ok? It’s only meant to sharpen up one another’s thinking.From Jim Gentry:
…I suggest the measurements are reasonable estimates, most of the time…
Among several other things I am not completely on top of, are the naturalistic mechanisms treated in the Big Bang Theory (Ahem. ). But I am certain we are talking about measurements which are built on assumptions, by definition.
Suppose we were asked to guess the age of Adam on the seventh day—a day after he was created. If we incorrectly assumed that Adam was not supernaturally created, but that instead he came about naturally, then we would derive an age that was far too old.
I offer you this relevant 4 minute video, “Does distant starlight prove the universe is old?” with Jason Lisle (Ph.D. astrophysics, the University of Colorado Boulder):
(or found at, youtube.com/watch?v=83brK_yohRA )
People interpret information through the filter of their worldview, scientists included.
Blessings.
I sent that to my friend JIm for assessment, and to give another point of view. He pulls these things off the top of his head, amazing.
In any case, for your consideration:
Jim says:
Dr. Jason Lyle’s arguments in that video are a collection of “possibilities” that seem to serve to allow him to support his preferred interpretations/translations.
I would ask him about psalm 19 for one thing. “The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands. Day after day they pour forth speech: night after night they display knowledge.” What is it about stellar “time zones” or Einsteinian relativity that is “displayed knowledge?” How would a few thousand years of believers read psalm 19? "Maybe there are time zones in space?” Are 21st century (and therefore “exotic”) ideas necessary to understand the Bible? “Perhaps.” “Maybe.” “What if.” Dr. Lyle posits that God may have used “supernatural means.” to allow light to travel in practically no “time” at all. How does that translate to our being able to trust what we see, “displayed knowledge,” in the heavens in that verse?
Dr. Lyle seems to believe the heavens were created on the fourth “day” (yom). Why are creation verbs not used there? What rule of Hebrew semantics require a “Yom” be 24 hrs? Why, then, is an “evening and a morning” not a mere 12 hrs?
He suggests that the Big Bang is an “alternative” to Biblical creation. I suggest it is identical to it. As, apparently, do these secular scientists;
Sir Frederick Hoyle- “The big bang theory theory requires a recent origin of the Universe that openly invites the concept of creation.”
George Smoot, director of the COBE background radiation project- “The question of ‘the beginning’ is as inescapable for cosmologists as it is for theologians.”
Robert Jastrow- “The essential element in the astronomical and Biblical accounts of Genesis is the same; the chain of events leading to man commenced suddenly and sharply, at a definite moment in time, in a flash of light and energy.”
I suggest that any English speakers interested in these things get an interlinear Bible, A Hebrew lexicon with Strong’s numbers, and make a list of the many english translation possibilities from the Hebrew words, and then decide which of these possibilities are the best explanations. And unless you cannot definitely refute a possibility, why wouldn’t you have to leave it in as a possibility? And try not to inject preconceived or favorite notions, so that we can be fair to the remaining possibilities. Is everyone who disagrees with you incompetent? After all, I can suggest Christian PH.d astronomers who disagree with Dr. Lyle. Maybe Jeff Zweerinck?
Also ask some questions…, such as- Was there really a practice to skip over many personages in Hebrew genealogies? Would that explain why Biblical genealogies are not identical? How many generations are missing?
Why does God, speaking thousands of years ago, call the hills “ancient” in more than one place?
Why does not the Hebrew ”shemayim eretz” in Gen 1:1.not mean “the entire physical universe.” Gleason Archer, the renowned Hebrew scholar, says it can. Could that explain why “Bara” the creation verb used in verse 1 is not used in “Yom” 4? Why is the “dark” localized in verse 2?
Why is the radical creation verb “bara” used in psalm 104: 29-30. Where God causes the death of creatures- “when you take away their breath, they die and return to the dust." And then- “When you send your Spirit, they are created (“Bara”) and you renew the face of the earth. “The face of the earth?..,” what scope! Which 24 hour period contained these actions? Here perhaps I should take my own advice & point out that the Hebrew translated here “earth” can also be translated “ground” which could be said to be smaller in “scope,” but it doesn’t have to be, and all I have to do is suspend my penchant for dogma. Yet I still have to ask,…, why is God killing creatures not included in the Genesis one account, at say, 2:30 in the afternoon on the 5th “day"? Why is this not a perfectly good question? Why and how is Psalm 104 not an explicit teaching of “day=age progressive creation?” And why exactly would one reject it without explanation? Or at least providing a better one.
Speaking of possibilities…, the Hebrew lexicon for “Shemayim” (“heaven’s, plural) used in the flood account contains the Hebrew convention of a perspective view of “from horizon to horizon.” Another opportunity for honest assessment of possibilities, is it not?
I see no compelling reason to abandon the belief that everything that has been created, was created supernaturally, some thousands (versus billions) of years ago, during six 24 hour days of a Creation Week—gaps in biblical genealogies notwithstanding.
That the Hebrew word for “day" is referring to a solar (24 hour) day—at least in Genesis 1—is supported by the story of the giving of the Ten Commandments, because when God commands that work be done for six days and then rest for one day, the Scriptures make explicit reference to God’s own work in like manner during the six days of creation, and His own rest on an earlier day seven:
*For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy. * Exodus 20:11.
As to “ancient” hills (as mentioned, for example, in Dt. 33:15), that adjective “ancient” is synonymous with “aforetime,” “from of old,” or “earliest time.” Again, I see nothing compelling to move us from a scale of thousands of years old, to a scale of billions of years old.
As to the assertion that the Big Bang is equivalent to biblical Creation: why must we try to shoehorn a supernatural event into the confines of an imperfect naturalistic model? As Jason Lisle pointed out at the end of his 4 minute video, and elaborated on in this short chapter: *“the big bang has a light travel-time problem of its own. If both models [bing bang and biblical creation] have the same problem in essence, then that problem cannot be used to support one model over the other. Therefore, distant starlight cannot be used to dismiss the Bible in favor of the big bang.” *
Again, I refer to my earlier point of Adam being created in adult form, from dirt, supernaturally. Granted, we indeed see naturalistic mechanisms—that were earlier put into place supernaturally—currently chugging right along, and exemplified in biology by human conception, with a nine month gestation period.
YET, back to the supernatural superseding the natural: we have Jesus becoming a human, without any DNA contributed by a human father; water to wine; food multiplied; blind eyes open; the lame walking; men walking on water; the dead raised, and more. As with biblical creation, there is simply no satisfactory naturalistic analysis that can be provided for any of these events, either.
I would like to understand better what Jim means by, “Yet I still have to ask,…, why is God killing creatures not included in the Genesis one account, at say, 2:30 in the afternoon on the 5th “day"? Why is this not a perfectly good question?” But let me reiterate from my original essay, at the beginning of this thread:
If He is nonviolent, God could not have used the mechanism of Darwinian Macroevolution to create man. Death is God’s stated enemy (1 Co 15:26). Millions of years of death, bloodshed, suffering, disease, and extinction*…eventually leading to “the ascent of man” as a moral agent?* This proposed mechanism puts death BEFORE the fall of man. However, the Scriptures plainly state death appeared only AFTER the fall of man in the Garden, coming in through his sin. Death doesn’t precede man, it follows him:
-“Therefore, just as THROUGH ONE MAN SIN entered the world, AND DEATH THROUGH SIN….” * Romans 5:12a.
-“For since BY MAN CAME DEATH, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.”* 1 Corinthians 15:21-22.Furthermore, Hebrews 2:14 shows us it is actually Satan who has the power of death, not God:
“Since the children have flesh and blood, he [Jesus] too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might break the power of him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil.”
Blessings