The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Article on The Gospel Coalition website discussing EU

And you get that he is an Arminian because he is Anglican? I don’t know where he stands in that regard.

Jason, in point 4.4.5 you refer to Ezekiel 25, but I think you mean Ezekiel 34. Also, where in the text of Ezekiel 34 do you get this: " making a new covenant of peace with all His rebel flock thereby."

And I actually read them all! :wink: Well done.

Which is a welcome improvement from TGC last engagement :slight_smile:

Good point. I’ve posted a comment saying that.

Thanks Jason for posting a comprehensive reply! I just finished reading them. [tag]Cindy Skillman[/tag] & [tag]Caleb Fogg[/tag] anyone else who reads the his comments, please make sure you “like” them (press the up arrow under the comment), as this will show the author that the comments are appreciated & when people sort the comments by “Best”, it will push them to the top.

I hope so!

I think it’s time you bumped into him again, & discuss EU over a coffee :smiley:

Great point Paidion.

poor guy :laughing:
being pounced on by a stoning of heretics (i looked up the collective noun :laughing: )

Uh, no, I thought you said he was helping pastor a Lutheran church.

That plus his repeated criticisms about how we just can’t be sure God will save those he intends to save: that’s a typical Arminian complaint, and really only a complaint from one kind of Arminian, not something a Calvinist would normally complain about (since it would completely undermine Calv assurance by the same token).

Relatedly, he never once complained about the scope of God’s intention being too wide. His reply to scope verses like from 1 Tim (where God apparently loves everyone with saving love) wasn’t that the scope was wrong but that God’s saving love doesn’t mean people will certainly accept it. Again, a typical Arminian reply. Calvs would deny 1 Tim is referring to God’s saving love for everyone or that it’s talking about God’s saving love at all (appealing to secret vs decretive will or perhaps some other distinction.)

It would be strange for a typically Calvinistic group to post an article from an Arminian heavily criticising one of their own doctrines (shared with us); but it would be even stranger for a Calv theologian to undermine his own doctrinal focuses in such a way.

Granted, I see crazy self-contradictive things happen opposing Christian universalism all the time, so… :wink:

Luke asked in reply to my brief comments about Matt 25: “Aiônios is used to describe the fate of the both the righteous and the unrighteous in Matt 25:46, is the “Eternal Life” of the righteous temporary as well?”

I posted the following as an answer:

From 34:25 and surrounding contexts. “And I will make a covenant of peace with them” referring to the flock whom God will judge one sheep from another, between the rams and the male goats (v.17).

God wouldn’t have to be making a covenant of peace with them if they weren’t estranged from Him to start with, and the reason God has to break the bars of their slavery (v.27) is because He delivered them into slavery as punishment for their ongoing rebellions.

Of course, the people specifically in view in Ez 34 are rebel Israel, not the Gentiles per se (Edom the land of Esau is the chief pagan nation in view for zorching in chapter 35 right afterward for example); and God is criticizing the poor, false and exploitative shepherds of Israel. But the false shepherds are still themselves rebel Israel, too, part of God’s flock.

Robin has posted a brief reply of his own now over at his blog: theologicalscribbles.blogspot.co … motts.html

Dr. McDermott,

Thank you for providing a classic critique of evangelical universalism. My perception is that you emphasize that the Bible says mankind’s division will be “final,” but offer no text that calls God’s horrific judgments “final.” You only assert that ‘aionios’ seems to “clearly” mean “forever.” But I know of no serious study which finds that this definition can consistently apply. You add that ‘heaven’ can’t be endless, unless hell also is, without offering any rationale for why the nature of resurrection life must depend on its’ duration being specified in Matthew 25’s parable.

You claim that Romans 5’s “all MEN” “will be made righteous” must be the language of huge exaggeration because it also calls them “the many.” But you ignore Paul’s parallel grammar that would mean this is the very same “many” who “were made sinners” in Adam. Thus, unless Paul is careless with language, it appears strained to deny that he believes (as in Colossians 1:20,16) that the “all” to be “reconciled to God” by Christ’s blood" is indeed in context the “all that were created” by God.

I believe that such questions can’t be settled by citing authorities who share the traditional fears that such a hope of God’s sure victory would mean that our costly evangelistic efforts won’t change the number and experience of those saved. This charge is often used to repudiate Calvinists. But I think evangelical differences here must be grounded in exegetical discussions of the Scripture itself.

First order of business before coffee with Dr. McDermott would be “coming out of the closet” re: my universalism with my pastor. :confused:

Oh, ah, yes… I see that makes things a little more complicated.

Tom Talbott has weighed in on the conversation: thegospelcoalition.org/themelios/article/will_all_be_saved

A stoning of heretics? That’s awesome! :laughing:

Dr. McDermott has responded to Tom Talbott and Robin Parry in the comment section.

Just finished reading all the new comments - it’s a great shame many reveal a deep misunderstanding of our position :confused: :frowning:

It is, but I think the Universalists have acquitted themselves quite well. I think a reader on the fence, if they were just reading McDermott’s article, would be swayed away from Universalism. But a reader who continues on to the comments, see’s Robin’s response, Tom’s comments, the comments of many here, especially compared to quality of the comments of the anti-universalists, will be interested in doing further exploration into the topic, hopefully checking out the forum, or Tom or Robin’s books.

I know I’m very biased but I do agree the majority of EU comments were more helpful :wink: I certainly hope people look into it more for themselves.

, Robin"]… I’ll let readers consider his arguments and see how persuasive they find them. I have no interest in an interminable back-and-forth (nor, I imagine, does Gerald McDermott) so I will leave it to stand as it is (though, of course, there is a fair bit that could be said in reply).

I apologize for being slow to the dance, but I just ran across this Themelios article by McDermott, and completed reading all the comments there, and all the comments in this thread. I just wanted to share my impressions. I am relatively new to universalism (maybe 2 years, barely seem to be getting my feet wet!) and am very persuaded by much of what I have read, especially from folks here at TEU. I have been reading much regarding the subject of “evangelical universalism.” McDermott’s short article was nothing different than what I have encountered as I have been studying and am in the middle of doing a very comprehensive book review of Hell Under Fire. The very same “tired” assumptions about biblical texts, the very same “tired” explanations (or lack thereof) of biblical doctrine concerning salvation, hell, the end times, eternity, etc. The near total ignoring of EU’s biblical and philosophical arguments is nothing short of stunning. I have yet to read of any “notable” author in the traditional Christian camp that will acknowledge that the likes of Parry, Talbott, Pratt, and the ancients from Jesus day through the last century, even have one rational thought regarding Christianity, especially Christianity looked at from an EU perspective by these and other fine Christians. I guess it is the assumptions that traditional Christianity is right and everyone else is wrong and does not deserve a hearing from the traditionalists that gets under my skin.

I guess what set my teeth on edge were the comments made by someone by the name of Maurice Smith. His arrogance, smugness, lack of true humility (so-called humble words encased in sarcasm, or with the feel of pure sarcasm are not humility, and this is what I perceived), made me want to quit reading the comments. At one point he even comments that that current comment will be his last, and then he goes on and on commenting to so many additional comments. It left me thinking that not only is he arrogant and lacks humility but he is a liar to boot! The comments I read in response to M. Smith by Talbott, Parry (comments to McDermott and I think M. Smith, but I could be wrong), Pratt, Alex Smith, et al., were for the most part pretty darn gracious compared to his own comments. I agree with Talbott that McDermott should not have attempted to summarize such an important and divisive topic as EU. I admit that I am not much for mincing words and have a lower tolerance for people who merely want to win an argument rather than winning a brother. I would much rather deal plainly with people and say what I mean, and mean what I say, rather than trying to find infinite ways to sugar coat what I believe (often I am then misunderstood about what I really mean/feel/believe). I also admit that I have been in the process of understanding and practicing more irenic discussions with those who oppose my uni beliefs. It has been a long time since I engaged in any discussions that turned rancorous. So, I tip my hat to all of you who commented with love and respect for those who were, in my opinion, vociferously seeking to slam your beliefs as heretical and elevate themselves as the seemingly “sole keepers of truth.”

I know I have much to learn when dealing with others who disagree with me. I feel such pity for those who are missing out on such a beautiful and biblical belief as evangelical universalism.I am grateful that I have found a group of believers, brothers and sisters alike, that I can interact with that will be a shining example of how to interact with the likes of McDermott, M. Smith, and the others. I hope that as I continue to follow your writings here, that I will learn by your example and exhibit more the deep love that you all show to those who frequent this board. I would appreciate any help you all could offer to aid my journey to understand/deal with this type of opposition that came out concerning the TGC article and its comments. I will finish this excessively long (longer than I expected!) comment by saying, I am not upset, though my words may seem that way. I am concerned and shocked that tradition runs rough shod over truth far to often and I feel impotent to deal with it! The upside is my prayer life is better because of it! Well, thanks for listening and thanks in advance for any help you can /may throw my way! Blessings to you all!