The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All

Are you inferring Paul is teaching salvation by works?

What does St. Paul say, right there in that verse?

I agree that as each one bows their knee they will experience all of those things.

“As in Adam all died so also “in Christ” shall all be made alive, but each in His own order.”

The bowing of the knee (imo) is repentance and faith towards God. This will happen for every being in creation, at one point or another(at which point many disagree). IMO the lake of fire symbolizes"in the presence of the Lamb and His holy angels"(Rev 14:10) and the Hebrews 12 "general assembly of the firstborn registered in heaven- so I don’t believe anyone has to “do” anything(not works of righteousness we have done, eph 2) so much as they have to experience something- repentence, which is “truth in the inner man” which will come as the adversaries stand before the one whose eyes are as flames(all things are open to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do Heb 12).

So I dont believe all are saved. I believe all will be saved, and that every one will be saved when they have received a broken and a contrite heart before the overwhelming glory of His presence.

2 Cor 4:3
But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

5 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus’ sake.

6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

All who are lost (apollumi)will be found, and every veil purged away by the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.

If I may inject something here…

IMO Romans one and two contain the foundations of Paul’s teaching on eternal judgment.(Hebrews 6:1-3 foundation doctrines)

Works themselves will be judged, we know from 1 Cor 3:13-17…

12Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13each man’s work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man’s work. 14If any man’s work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. 15If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; **but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
**

So salvation is not by works, but faith without works is dead(faith is such that it will always produce works of some kind- even if it is only forgiveness where their was hatred, remorse here there was indifference or arrogance.). The first thing is repentance and faith towards God(a broken and a contrite heart), which is a gift of grace…

Eph 2 8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

In Romans 2 Paul states, as he does in several places(2 Cor 5:10, 1 Cor 3:12-17) as Jesus also does(He will judge them according to their deeds, Mt 6:27) that works will be weighed(I am he that tries the reigns and the hearts) in for everyone(for we must all stand before the judgment seat of Christ to give account for the deeds done in the body). But repentance and faith towards God washes out evil works. John says, “if we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” So I extrapolate that that is what happens when one bows the knee before the revelation of Christ crucified, risen as Lord and Savior. This further evidenced in John the Baptist “And they were baptized by him in the Jordan river, confessing their sins”. When one confesses their sin they are washed, because they have separated themselves from the sin in their hearts, “Agreeing with the law of God in [their] mind, that it is good”- and this referring to the Great Law, the law of love.

Salvation is by grace, but works will be judged “their conscience either excusing them or accusing them on the Day when God judges the secrets of their hearts by Jesus Christ”

For those who never had the law or the gospel, the universal law of God explained in Romans 1 will apply. Made evident by the light of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ(2 Cor 4)

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse…

In His presence all the secrets of all the hearts will be revealed and “The Lord knows those who are His”-

Those who have a broken and a contrite heart(honest before Him and within themselves about their faults before Jesus who is the fire) will rejoice in forgiveness. Others may endure some form of kolassis( I believe that is simply being penetrated by the light that brings every hidden thing to the surface.)

So salvation is by faith through grace. This grace is often given in the midst of judgment(fire/light that opens the heart) and works apply only as evidence of the condition of the heart, as James said, “faith without works is dead”

And thats the short answer LOLOLOLOL.

Thanks EW. :smiley:
I was hoping to get Eusebius’ answer to my question.

I do not believe in light switches:

“Richard is saved, Linda is not saved, Anne is saved, Laura is not saved, Charles is not saved…”

“Hey! Didn’t you hear? Charles accepted Jesus into his heart last night!”

“Oh, OK! So Charles is saved…”

Insofar as any man has been saved from his sins, he does not sin. Insofar as any man has not been saved from his sins, he does sin.

For example, if Mr. Charles (who accepted Jesus into his heart last night) is still getting drunk, he has not been saved from his drunkenness. If, on the other hand, he has put away the bottle, then he has been saved from his drunkenness.

Saved does NOT in this context mean “going to Heaven when you die”. I believe that every single person since Christ’s death on the cross goes to Heaven when he dies, no exceptions.

Saved DOES mean “not sinning anymore”. The less a man sins, the more saved he is. The more a man sins, the less saved he is.

Even as not an “ultra” universalist… John’s statement must still be taken in context with his other words in his epistles and the scriptures as a whole. John describes sin as “If any man says He loves God and hates his brother he is in darknes still” and "the new command, which is the ancient one, “Love one another’”. I believe, in John’s paradigm, as presented across all His writing, he one who is loving is not “sinning”, even tho we all stumble in many ways(James) "Love covers a multude of sins(also James).

How?

If the love of God is in us, we have forgiveness wherever we fall short. If not “all our righteousness is as filthy rags”.

“If we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.”(1 John 2)

“7Beloved, let us love one another, because love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. 8Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.….” (1 John 4)

Geoffrey said:

I might tend to agree with this… :smiley:

Then Geoffrey said:

.

My contention is that Christ took care of the sin problem between man and God. So man could not do it but Christ stood in the gap. So we may well keep on sinning (in various degrees) and yet Christ will have taken care of those very sins. The idea of us possibly not sinning any more is interesting. :open_mouth:

Yes Dave, that is what Paul wrote:

*For he will render to everyone according to his works: to those who by perseverance in well‑doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are self-seeking and are not persuaded by the truth, but are persuaded by wickedness, there will be wrath and fury.

Affliction and anguish for every person who does evil … but glory and honour and well-being for every one who does good … For God shows no partiality. (Romans 2:6-11)*

:laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: I’m not a “hyper-universalist” — I don’t believe in the ‘hell’ of universalism; I’m an inclusive prêterist, better called a pantelist i.e., ALL is fulfilled BOTH eschatologically AND redemptively, with the “gehenna” of the gospels referring to Jerusalem’s AD70 inferno where the city/temple became a ‘lake of fire’.

Rom 2:7 to those, indeed, who** by endurance in good acts are seeking** glory and honor and incorruption, life eonian;"

It says they are seeking life eonian. It doesn’t say they get it by doing good. Paul later shows they can’t get it by doing good; that eonian life comes through what Christ did. Paul reveals that all men are sinners and wanting of the glory of God and that death passed through into all mankind and for that, all sin (Rom.5:12). Then Paul reveals the solution to the dilemma in Romans 5:18,19, how Christ has done what was necessary to undo mankind being made sinners.

If people “go to heaven when they die,” why is there a need for the resurrection of the dead? And if there is no resurrection, Paul says our faith is in vain and we perish. So if we go to heaven when we die, that must be a horrible thing that we still perish if there is no resurrection.

And why did Peter tell the audience in Acts that David has not gone to heaven? And why did John tell his readers that only Christ has gone to heaven if everyone goes to heaven when they die?

When we go to Heaven our salvation is not yet complete. In Heaven our souls will be purified and made sinless, but we still will not be complete because we will not in Heaven have our bodies back. We get our immortal bodies at the coming resurrection. At the resurrection of mankind and the transfiguration of the entire creation (both of which occur at the Second Coming) our salvation will be 100% complete. And that is the beginning, not the end. Then the real story starts. All of fallen history is a false start. We haven’t even begun yet.

Before I answer your questions about Peter and John, please give me the chapter and verse of the passages you’re thinking of. I want to make sure we’re thinking of the same verses before answering.

The Bible doesn’t say our souls go to heaven when we die. It says they go to the unseen from where they came. The body returns to the soil from which it came and the spirit returns to God. Since God is everywhere, it doesn’t have far to go to return to God. God breathed into Adam the breath of life. That was his spirit. Soul is the result of the coming together of the spirit and body. In Genesis it says God created Adam of the soil of the ground. When He gave Adam his spirit the bible says “he became a living soul.” So when one dies their soul become nothing again. Soul is just the sensations. The Bible says the soul is in the blood. Cut off the blood supply to your foot and it “goes asleep.” In effect you are cutting off soul to the foot or sensations.

That’s a good example, Geoff. One can be saved from a particular sin without yet having been saved from all sin.

Correct.

I trust you mean that in the Orthodox way—that all people will end up in the same place or condition—that God’s beloved children will experience God’s consuming fire as God’s love, whereas those who reject Him or even hate Him will experience God’s consuming fire as God’s wrath.

George MacDonald taught the same. In his novel Adela Cathcart, Book 2, he wrote:

C.S. Lewis, who considered GMD to be his mentor, in The Last Battle of the Narnian Chronicles, wrote that when everyone went to Aslan’s country, most rejoiced. But the black dwarves who were in the stable when they were taken imagined that they were still in the stable. When they were offered choice food, they thought they were being offered rotten turnips from the stable, and so they rejected it. When they were offered choice wine, they thought they were being offered urine from the cattle troughs, and they rejected it with disgust.

I agree.

In general, I am far more in agreement with Orthodox thought than I am with the wide variety of positions taken in this forum, such as those taken by fundamentalists and preterists. However, I do not believe that our minds (or “souls” or “spirits” if you prefer) survive death and go somewhere after death. I believe our minds are an integral part of our whole being and cannot be separated from our body. That is why Paul said in 1 Cor 15, that if there is no resurrection we might as well eat and drink, implying that all we’ll have we’ll get in this life. Also, with respect to the resurrection, he said, “If in this life only we have hope in Christ, were are of all people most to be pitied.” (1 Cor 15:19). As Qaz pointed out, is there any essential purpose in the resurrection if we go to heaven at death? You say that getting our bodies again will make us more complete. But why not be content to live eternally as disembodied spirits? No, we are a complete entity. Our body and our mind are but two aspects of this entity. When we die, we are dead. And we’ll stay dead until God or his Son raises us from death.

Well, the legendary songwriter Leonard Cohen - passed away. I’ll share his most famous religious song: :smiley:

or

youtube.com/watch?v=YrLk4vdY28Q

And another song, just filled my mind. Reminding me that I’m becoming a Holy Spirit, filled artist. It’s a really cool place to be. :smiley:

or

youtube.com/watch?v=tH2w6Oxx0kQ

But that’s the whole problem qaz… too many people ignore semantics and consequently make all manner of wild and incorrect generalisations. That said, I think Geoffrey comes close to the mark…

There are a few options, but it could well simply be that John’s “sin unto death” references a known criminal offense where that under Jewish law ‘the death penalty’ was the ultimate outcome, i.e., the “sin unto death” was notably any capital offense, as per the likes of…

I think this is the most direct and least complicated understanding of John’s “sin unto death”.

Well, you have published some material about the different ideas about salvation :smiley: So I think it could be beneficial if you would briefly expound on those different ideas. :smiley: If possible. :neutral_face:

My idea is not to put you on the spot , but to maybe expose a different way of looking at this subject :blush:

I’ll go on to post this link:pantelism.com/redemption/redemption.html

Good stuff :smiley: