The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All

Are the above scriptures just teasing us in a deceitful way and we really are not free to choose or respond?

Their choice was not free from cause. If they chose not to do the law they would be destroyed. If they did covenant with God to do the law, they were then under the curse of the law. Either way, God was going to prove to them they could not do the law. So no matter how much they CHOOSE this day Whom they will serve, their choice could not help them actually serve the Lord. And in fact Joshua told them right afterward that they cannot serve the Lord!

They may have chosen life but that is not what they got. They came under the curse of the law. Paul said the law is death chiseled in stone. Their choice to have life was voided by coming under the law. Their choice could not get them what they wanted therefore their choice was null.

First of all one needs to know that the above verses, including Revelation 3:20 are not given with the idea that mankind has a free will to choose to come to God or Christ. Rather they should be read with the understanding that should one open the door to Christ that they were chosen by God to do such. Boasting is excluded. Why? Because it is God Who saves. “What have you got but what you’ve received and why boast as if not receiving it?”

We all make choices. The question though is: are they free from causality? What causes someone to choose A over B? Something has to. The choice is not free. It is caused.

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The trouble is that we keep bouncing around the term “causality”. But you first have to establish that it exists. Not everyone believes in it. Or if they believe in God, they might view the deity, as Deism does. He starts up the universe and let’s it continue - without intervention. Let’s survey some forum talks.

Quora - Does causality exist?
Science Philosophy Chat Forums - Does causality exist?

Suppose Eusebius read a paper on his position, at the next Evangelical conference on Universalism. And three disquingished scientists were at the conference. After a few drinks, they went to hear his talk - just for fun. Afterwards, each approached and said this:

Jerry A. Coyne is a professor in the Department of Ecology and Evolution, at The University of Chicago. He liked the talk and shared his interest in brain research. He said that the illusion of free will, is caused by neural transmitters in the brain. And he presents him with a layman’s article from USA Today article at Column: Why you don’t really have free will. To illustate this, see Do we have Free Will :

Professor Rupus T Firefly from Standard, says that while causality is operating in this world, it’s not at the level of Quantum physics. The Uncertainty principle and Quantum indeterminacy. really determines all reality. And he can show experiments to correlate it to free will. See the **Scientific American **article The Quantum Physics of Free Will. Here are 4 points that will be addressed, in the article:

Professor Elmer J Fudd from Oxford, is a neo-behaviorist. He agrees with the paper. But says people just need the right reinforcement, from stimulus-response research in psychology, in order to make the proper choices. He gives him a copy of Walden II by B.F. Skinner. Let’s watch his assistant, Dr. Sheldon Cooper, demonstrate this.

So how would Eusebius respond, to these 3 distinguished professors? What is presented in the 3 previous scientific examples are facts. They are current scientific positions that many scientists hold. They would say that:

Free will illusion is caused by neural brain transmitters, according to current brain research
At the level of Quantum physics, the Uncertainty principle and Quantum indeterminacy, would undermine or neutralize the principle of causality.
You can get people to respond via operand conditioning or behavior modification

Or let’s take the case of spiritual healing. A person is told by the medical specialists and medical tests, that their disease is incurable. But they go to some spiritual healing modality - perhaps:

The Catholic site Lourdes
A Charismatic healer
An Indigenous Native American ceremony
A Christian Science practitioner
A meeting of the Bruno Groening Circle of Friends
Etc.

In keeping with what I know, they might have:

No healing
A partial healing
A complete healing

So how would Eusebius respond? I have spend a lifetime investigating spiritual healing. And I have observed all that I have described. These are not “make-believe scenarios”.

This cartoon illustrates correlation variables. Eusebius believes everything is a causality variable. But that raises many questions:

How many causality variables are there, that influence a given decision?
What statistical percentage does each one represent (something that experiments in psychology, social psychology, etc., can give you)?
How do you know each person will respond to a given causality variable, in the same way? And if not, how do you explain the difference?
How do you know something you think is a causality variable, is not a correlation variable?
Etc.

https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTivwlBykIH_8pMaKCTJRr-KZb5vRUOR2m8NpdRFZbX2yDhzrkKHA

Or I could say that since I am subject to causality and the will of God, it is my destiny to embrace Holy Fool theology and P-Zombie philosophy. So no one here, can fault me for that. :exclamation: :laughing:

Asking if causality exists is like asking if air exists. The entire universe is built on cause and effect. Something caused you to write your response. It was not a causeless response. You didn’t just write a response due to no cause whatsoever.

Suppose we don’t go by supposes and just stick with facts?

I don’t really like dealing with make-believe scenarios. Either something is or it isn’t. We are all the products of cause. Something caused your mother and father to get together and produce you. You didn’t come about due to something causeless.

If our will is free than humanity is not responsible since nothing caused them to do what they do.
If our will is not free than humanity is not responsible since their wills were caused to do what they had to do and they could not do otherwise.
In both cases above, mankind is not responsible in the ultimate sense.
Sure we have relative responsibilities such as taking care of our children. But even then our wills/choices are made by a greater force than to not take care of them.

What is presented in the 3 previous scientific examples are facts. They are current scientific positions that many scientists hold. They would say that:

Free will illusion is caused by neural brain transmitters, according to current brain research
At the level of Quantum physics, the Uncertainty principle and Quantum indeterminacy, would undermine or neutralize the principle of causality.
You can get people to respond via operand conditioning or behavior modification

I have spend a lifetime investigating spiritual healing. And I have observed all that I have described. These are not “make-believe scenarios”.

Okay, thank you.

Oooops! :open_mouth: :blush: :unamused:

Of course humanity has FREEWILL… we just don’t all get to taste of it equally as we would like, BUT it is FREEWILL nonetheless, i.e., another’s (free) will may be stronger than ours… no one trumps God’s FREEWILL.

There are certain laws in place that impinge on man’s freewill, however to the degree that man’s freewill can triumph over said laws man’s freewill will, up until whatever enables man’s freewill to defy said laws, and thus the greater standing law prevails.

Eusebius… I know you don’t like “make-believe scenarios” apparently, although when convenient you use them yourself; but man for example, by his freewill can choose to defy the law of gravity and will do so up the point he can maintain that which causes him do to so. However, that ability unlike the law of gravity is not limitless and in the end will triumph over the act of man’s freewill.

God has given humanity FREEWILL within the bounds of His choosing… to the degree man moves within those pre-set boundaries he has FREEWILL. When my children were small they had freewill to move wherever they so freely chose in my back yard… they did not have the same freewill beyond the markers I set. IF they of the OWN FREEWILL chose to defy said boundaries certain consequences could come into play.

Given that no one is an auto-bot it is only natural and normal for one/some to push the bounds and limits and experience said consequences… it’s the NATURE of God-given freewill, which to varying degrees can be exercised.

The most obvious answer I can give to that… “what does the evidence suggest?” :mrgreen:

If to sin is to miss the mark, then it is true that men sin, regardless of whether they have free will, or not.

If men do not have free will, then there are other forces and or wills at work causing them to do what they do, just as with animals and trees.

God made Nebuchadnezzar like a beast of the field for seven years till He restored him to sanity.

Re the last sentence above, i’d say if you tried to get a demon possessed person to respond as you wish, you may have extreme
difficulties or even complete failure.

I think perhaps we all have the feeling (or illusion) that we have free will.

What is an illusion? The impression that as we look out over an ocean or miles of farmlands in the country that the earth is flat?
Or as we observe the sun it appears to be moving & the earth standing still?

Freewill is an illusion if the inerrant inspired Scriptures say it is.

That’s the funniest post I’ve read on this site! :laughing:

Martin Zender offers some Scriptures that he sees as refuting free will:

martinzender.com/Zenderature … _creed.htm

Logic would suggest this could be a reasonable assumption… what have you concluded from this?

Zender makes the all too oft mistake, yourself included, of universalising what can be attributable and thus limited to certain specifics.

Denying free will is like denying the existence of humanity.

Humanity itself is founded on the ability to choose.

I know you were addressing someone else, but I will respond as if it were addressed to me.
Yes, there was a cause of my written response. I, myself, was the cause. You might claim that your statements were the cause. But that is not the case. I could have refrained from responding to your statements. And that is free will—the ability to choose between alternatives.

Re Q1, there are a multitude of possible variables re causes of behaviour in biblical deterministic theory, if one wants to break it down in detail.
More generally you have the will of man/will of the flesh, the workings of demonic or evil spirits, environmental influences, heredity, the presence of holy angels, the power and word of God, His Son, the Holy Spirit, etc.

Re Q2, this is a question for an Omnipotent Being & those He confides in who are, if any, on a need to know basis, not human beings. Though i
question that any of these would have any interest in such scientific data.

Re Q3/4 see Q2…Crooked [is] the heart above all things, And it [is] incurable – who doth know it? I Jehovah do search the heart,(Jer.17:9-10a)

More from Martin Zender on free will:

"Live as if It All Depends on You
Q: To what extent is our free will? God chooses us and gives us belief. Do we make any choices at all? When I used to wup my brother on the basketball court, was that talent and free will?

A: There is no such thing as free will. Nobody makes any decision at any time that is not ultimately dictated by God.

Now, forget I just said that and live your life. Live as if you have all the free will in the world. This is how God wants us to live. We are to live like we have control, but we are to believe the truth that we have no control. The two are not mutually exclusive. One is the relative perspective (our day-to-day life as we relate with other people and ourselves), and the other is the absolute perspective. The relative is not absolutely true. Only the absolute is absolutely true. And the absolute is: we have no free will in anything. Nothing. Zip.

The talent that caused you to wup your brother in basketball was a gift of God. Everything you have and do is a gift of God. God GAVE all these things to you, and He continues to give them. As Paul writes, “What do we have that we have not obtained?” You have not originated anything, but have merely obtained it. "

martinzender.com/QA.htm

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Coffees (pl) for me, thanks! Low fat milk, hold the sugar & extra caffeine. Cheers.

As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, (Eph. 2:1)

Zombie, this verse refers to those who were living yet dead, i.e. the living dead, zombies ;

“living dead. living dead - Dictionary definition and meaning for word living dead. (noun) a dead body that has been brought back to life by a supernatural force. Synonyms : zombi , zombie.”

Yep that’s exactly what it is… a complete no-brainer!

And that is why free will is confined, IMO, to the temporal since the cross, being one who believes in actual redemption. When we leave this temporal body, I have a suspicion that every knee will bow and tongue confess.

I still like the ice cube and the sun :laughing: