The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Words Meaning "Chastisement" Not Used of the Impenitent

Okay, I take up the challenge.

This charge I entrust to you, Timothy, my child, in accordance with the prophecies previously made about you, that by them you may wage the good warfare, holding faith and a good conscience. By rejecting this, some have made shipwreck of their faith, among whom are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan that they may learn not to blaspheme.(I Tim 1:18-20 ESV)

The English “may learn” is in the active voice, but the Greek word is in the passive voice, which in its lexical form is none other than “παιδευω” (or “paideuo” as you write it). “that they may be chastised not to blaspheme”. Rotherham’s translation puts it this way, "that they may be taught by discipline not to be defaming. To be taught by discipline is to be chastised.

Now it’s true that Hymenaeus and Alexander were once believers, but they made shipwreck of their faith! There were no longer believers. Until Paul handed them over to Satan for chastisement, they were doubtless impenitent as well. They were blaspheming!

Though unbelievers whom God sends to hell may be impenitent, they will become penitent after they are chastised, just as Paul expected Hymenaeus and Alexander to be after they received their chastisement from Satan.

Revival, The LOF is God’s presence and there is NO getting away from it, ever. :smiley:

You on the other hand almost seem to WANT the LOF to be ECT so that billions of people including yours and ours loved ones to permanently be away from God’s presence to suffer immensely in torment for all eternity. You promote it so much and with such enthusiasm that i do often wonder about you. :confused:

Could a person who is shipwrecked of their faith be tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine by the sleight of men, and not be lost? Absolutely!. :wink: This verse no where indicates a loss of salvation. You are adding that to the text. Nice try though. :smiley:

BTW, Hymaneous and Alexander are not impenitent unbelievers but repentant believers who are doctrinally shipwrecked but not yet lost. :wink:

It doesn’t matter what I want, Caroleem, it only matters what has been established in God’s word. I don’t want a single soul to go to Hell and eventually to the eternal LOF but that is not my call…all I can do is like Paul said in 1 Cor 9:22 “To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men,** that I might by all means save some.”**

Abraham argued with God. Jacob wrestled with God. Moses stood between God and Israel. Job furiously summoned God to court (and God came.) David’s anger burned against God (and he was a man after God’'s own heart.) The Samaritan woman argued with Jesus (and Jesus gave in.)

“What you want” matters. If you are prepared to let your God commit atrocities without raising a voice in protest, you will find yourself up to the neck in refining fire. The true God loathes flattery and cowardice. (He also has a very low view of people who hope to find eternal life by studying a book.) Good-hearted atheists who angrily reject all gods who act monstrously will be welcomed into Paradise by choirs of angels. (The last shall be first.)

God still destroyed Sodom and Gormorah. Moses led Israel out of Egypt only to have Joshua and Caleb enter into the promise land. ( a type and shadow of salvation) My God is not committing atrocities otherwise He would not be God. His judgments are righteous and just whether you agree with them or not. Good-hearted atheists (if they die an atheist) will open their eyes and found out how wrong they were while being tormented not refined by the flames of Hell as the Richman.

Extrapolating beyond what Scripture clearly reveals and assuming something in a text by human reason and logic does not make it true, Allan. :wink:

My prayers and preaching the gospel to the lost can and will make a difference to some but it doesn’t violate their will. They have to make the choice in the end. Life or death. God says choose life!

PS I’m want to hear your biblical response to my OP not my response to Caroleem’s accusations that lead to off topic rabbit trails. :wink:

So how do you deal with the passage that says that S&G will be restored to their former state?

What passage are you talking about, Jeff?

Ezekiel 16:53 'However, I will restore the fortunes of Sodom and her daughters and of Samaria and her daughters, and your fortunes along with them,

Aaron,
Do you believe God doesn’t love the impenitent?

Sonia

What does this verse have anything to do with my OP?

I posted what you were asking Jeff about…

You then asked…

And i posted the verse in which i assumed Jeff was referring to, which was…

Ezekiel 16:53 'However, I will restore the fortunes of Sodom and her daughters and of Samaria and her daughters, and your fortunes along with them,

Hope that explains it for you… :sunglasses:

Of course not, Sonia. God not loving the impenitent is not the issue. Only erroneous exegetical methodology birthed out of false premises rooted in human logic and subjects Scripture to these false premises so that it appears to yield what the false premises demand says “God loves the impenitent unbeliever so much that He chastises them for remedial purposes either in this life or the afterlife to bring them eventually to salvation.” yet no where in God’s word supports this and it contradicts other scriptures.

This is very true except i wouldn’t have posted the rolling eye smilie. :wink:

:confused:

I don’t even have any idea what you’re talking about there. :confused: I am going by what the word of God says, not any of that mumbo jumbo. We here at EU are going by God’s word, not what you believe we are going by. :wink:

Of course not, you just ignore the context of my post to Sonia( and my OP) like you do with scripture and you make comments. :unamused:

What is your goal here Revival? Why are you, and why have you been in various reiterations, on this forum?

I could have sworn some of us have said that same thing about you. :wink:

THis is what I learn from those stories: Evil will be destroyed and the good will be saved. But this has little to do with the question at hand.

Righteous men argued with God. They would not tolerate injustice from his hand and were bold enough to say so. Moses didn’t follow your line and and say, “God is righteous by definition. Therefore if he wants to kill all Israel, it must be right.” Abraham didn’t say, “God is immutable. Therefore, if he wants to destroy Sodom there’s nothing I can (or should) do about it.” Job didn’t say, “God is inscrutable and can do no wrong. Therefore I must have sinned. I’ll shut up and take it on the chin.”

When was the last time you sat in the dust, speechless and horrified at the thought of a single soul suffering boundless torment? Have you no imagination? Do you suffer from some sort of psychopathy that renders you incapable of empathy? When did you last pray, “Far be it from the judge of all the earth to do wrong! Lord God, do not do this appalling thing! Rather, have mercy. Show the world your glory by saving even your enemies. Any tyrant can destroy, but only you can save.”

That’s a useless argument because it can be used by anyone to justify anything. “Moloch is not committing atrocities otherwise He would not be God. His judgments are righteous and just whether you agree with them or not. Now obey his infallible word! Throw your baby into the sacred fire!”

What a thrilling prospect, having your enemies tormented forever. That’ll show 'em who’s boss.

The rich man represents Israel and the poor man represents the Gentiles. That parable has nothing to do with punishment after death.

Here are two things scripture clearly reveals: “God is love”, and “Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails.”

How does a God who always perseveres, who keeps no record of wrong, who seeks the other, and who never fails… fit into your miserable conception of hell?

You speak of human logic. I think you extrapolate your own emotional reaction towards your enemies and project it onto God. You want to hurt those who hate you and construct a God who does the same.

Can you drop the emoticons please? I rarely like being winked at. It makes me feel I’m being patronized.

God won’t violate our precious wills, but he’s quite prepared to drop us into everlasting fire. Would *that *violate our wills, I wonder?

Some of the greatest Church fathers, godly men speaking Greek from birth, were outspoken universalists. That’s all I need to know.