The Evangelical Universalist Forum

The Wheat and the Tares

i think we have to be careful about mixing metaphors in this instance. yes, a furnace is for refining or creating, but if you throw a bundle of weeds in there, they will be burned to ash.

however, the very statement that there’s weeping and gnashing of teeth in the furnace when there should be rather a swift but painful death means maybe Christ Himself was mixing metaphors LOL

if i was Jesus, i’d have hoped the disciples would question me further. this parable begs questions, and that’s why i feel it’s not a final statement, but a leading one. the “end of this world” doesn’t mean there is no hope in the next.

Dondi, you’ve definitely found us a puzzle! but it still has to balance against the rest of the Bible. also, i doubt this parable contains the whole truth, just a part of it. we still have to consider the 1 Corinthians 3:15, and see that everyone is judged by fire, and if his works or life don’t stand up to the test, he himself will still be saved, but will suffer loss.

i also find that a very foundational scripture which still will apply here is Lamentations 3:31. God does not cast aside forever.

i’ll agree with whoever said calvinism is abhorrent (unless every living thing is pre-destined, but that contradicts the Point about limited atonement).

i think the statement that God will separate the good from the bad, and burn away the bad, should be a comforting statement that God will eventually destroy all evil. parables are not meant to be taken as more than a picture. if you analyse too far you see issues.

i really don’t believe in the Nephilim theory, though it would make a fantastic film. if you read that part of Genesis, it does not follow from the statement that the children of the “Sons of God” were anything more than mighty warriors of legend. the statement that sin was rampant is grammatically separate, and so these fellows may’ve been big and strong and wise, but no more evil than you or i. they were not why the Flood came (if the Flood’s literal). also, after the Flood, how could any of their descendents have been alive on earth, given that Noah and his family were all that were saved?
however, if it IS true, maybe the reason why Hitler’s body wasn’t found was because he didn’t die…scary thoughts. but like i say, a good movie but not good history. Hitler would then not be “human” and us humans would have reason to celebrate that such evil wasn’t caused by us…and blatantly it is in all our hearts, so this would be a false comfort.

I just want to interject a “thank you” to you all. As I read this thread, I was so full of joy, reading all your comments. I have never seen people work, with differing ideas, to find an answer together. Not about the Bible. I am so thankful to be here, to have found a place where it can be truly said, “You will know them by their love for one another”. Thank you all! You are a blessing and bring me much hope!

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Very helpful comments and texts awakening and corpselight

Some additional comments and emphasis:

  1. The tares are clearly something with no worth; they are valueless. So it takes a stretch to say they represent people/minds/souls. In our beloved Luke 15 parables of the Lost sheep, lost coin, and “lost” son, the thing/entity being sought has worth and thus the relevance of God’s persistence and initiative and ingenuity in seeking the lost. And of course we can’t postulate a salvation drama where Christ comes to save/redeem that which is worthless to Him…

  2. The burning in this parable is clearly for the purpose of total destruction; to get rid of; to make disappear, that which has no value. The Tares, as valueless, clearly will be subject to this destiny. While we can say that evil is valueless, we cannot say that those who engage in evil are also valueless. Therefore it makes sense the burning may indeed convey a purification in that it burns away that which is worthless. This of course fits quite well with the death and fire images in the bible as means of purification and journey to holiness and so on. Pauls dying daily, being crucified with Christ, etc

  3. As for the more tangential speculations about the Nephilim, I’m not real sure that’s a worthwhile path of inquiry here. Seems a central theme of the bible is that life’s author and sustainer is God – not the evil one. Satan (to put a name, if one prefers to, on the evil one) is the destroyer and God the creator. All Satan can do is twist and pervert and subvert and adulterate that which is/was created good. But the life that is in these perversions does not come from Satan, but from God. And thus should stand of object of God’s saving justice and mercy it seems to me…

  4. Lastly, and this is a bit sobering perhaps, it does seem that the presence of the Tares among the Wheat does have a negative impact on the Wheat. We’re told that uprooting the tares before the harvest will ruin the Wheat; presumably because their roots are all jumbled up together in the soil. But this would also mean that precious nutrients in the soil that are intended to nourish the Wheat is in fact being diverted to the Tares and thereby depriving the Wheat of it’s full sustenance. — But I have little idea what spiritual meaning that might have.

Bobx3

PS – yes Kelly S! I agree with your take on the fine folks who think together here!

just had a thought. Robin Parry has tentatively and cautiously mentioned the hypothesis that Satan may be destroyed in order to save lucifer.
could the tares be our sin natures? it’d surely kill us to rip them out now, and in a sense our sin natures are offspring of the evil one…
that’s more speculative than i wanted to be, but just throwing the idea out there.

PS: Kelly, yeah it’s pretty cool! i like the environment here :slight_smile:

corpselight, that’s an interesting hypothesis. Parables are challenging because it is so easy to read much into them. On the other hand, they are also powerful tools of teaching for they force the person to wrestle with the text. And in wrestling we might come away with a limp and our names changed, like Jacob did, marked and changed. I find that accademically/exegitically speaking, parables clearly communicate just a couple of points; but as we wrestle with such passages, God can communicate to us much through them.

And Kelly, I too appreciate that we on this site, for the most part, can discuss differences of opinion/beliefs openly and gracefully. Much of it comes from the beliefs that 1) God is in control and the only righteous judge. 2) All people are valuable and loved by God. 3) We are not called to judge one another, but love one another. 4) An increasing level of humility that recognizes “I could be wrong; I certainly have been in the past”. And 5) a hunger to grow in the “grace” and “knowledge” of our Lord and Savior. There is always more to learn, and more grace to grow in!

I was raised in a group who thought we had to corner market on truth, that we were the only ones who really read the scriptures honestly and dealt with them forthrightly. Looking back on it now I realize just how prideful and selfrighteous that was.

Well, anyhow, thanks for reminding us how rare this type of fellowship is!

Blessings,
Sherman

Good point corselight, we must careful not to read to much into Scripture, however the way I look at Jesus and his parables is that they intimately connect to the Old Testament. Jesus uses metaphors found in every OT book, for instance the Sheep and Goats parable is taken from Ezekiel 34, Jesus’s claim to being the door (the only way to God) is taken from Psalm 24. Jesus takes many different themes (some barely touched on) to tell his stories and teach his people. Looking up furnace, all throughout scripture it is used for refining and judgment, its a title for Egypt (iron furnace a.k.a. bondage); the furnace is also associated with testing of the heart, it is where God pours out his wrath and melts the wicked, and its where Shadrach/ Meshach/ Abednego were set free of their bonds and became a testimony of God’s might.

Jesus knew all these Scriptures when he said that the wicked would be thrown into the fiery furnace. Right after the parable of the Wheat and Tares, Jesus tells another one about good and bad fish, the result is the same the evil are thrown into a fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. So we must realize that Jesus is not alluding to tares or bad fish here, because if you burn either of those they turn to ash. No, he is talking about the wicked being put in a furnace for refining. The wheat,tares,fish etc. are inconsequential, Jesus is focusing on the fiery furnace in both these parables. And as I’ve tried to explain the furnace is used for good in most if not all the scriptures its mentioned.

Excellent discussion.

Paul, too, employed the same sort of metaphors as John the Baptizer and Jesus did. In 1 Cor 3, he describes our fiery purification wherein all within us that is not worthy of God is destroyed by His consuming fire. “Wood, hay and stubble” here corresponds to the tares of Jesus’ parable.

Very interesting and thought provoking corpselight!

Also, seems perhaps the parable intends to address what have been cries of the faithful in all generations:

– Why, O God, evil? (“an enemy has done this…”)

– Will You, O God, forever stand by and let evil prosper? – the answer is clearly NO

The parables intent then would not be to elicit fear (oh no! am I a “Tare”? and destined for the furnace?) but to elicit hope. (God sees, knows, and will be faithful His purposes of eradicating evil/sin…)

Bobx3

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All poignant answers and I appreciate the insight. Yet I still have to point out that nowhere in the parable, or in the progression of the ‘harvest’ therein, is there any indication that the tares turn into wheat (or vice versa, for that matter).
Nor is the argument that the wheat and the tares are just of different shades of ourselves seem to bear out, for again I must stress that in the interpretation Jesus gives it clearly states that there are two factions of children at play here.

A parable isn’t meant to be absolutely inflexible. Just because Jesus doesn’t talk about tares turning into wheat doesn’t mean they don’t – the whole kingdom is about repentance and being born again (…and three thousand souls were added to their number that day…"). Tares are constantly turning into wheat. The parable doesn’t say it, but we know it to be true because the kingdom is like this. It started out with none, and souls are constantly added. In modern politics and culture we talk about “the rich and the poor” as if they are a static group of people. Not true. When we say “the rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer” it doesn’t mean that there is a fixed group of people “the rich” and another fixed “the poor” and they increase and decrease. In life we start out quite a bit poorer. In our 20’s with a new job and a low wage we tend to be closer to “the poor”. By the time many people are in their 50’s they have had promotions and raises and they tend to be in “the rich”. Also by fate, you could be “the rich” and a terrible thing could happen and you find yourself among “the poor”. They are not static groups - they are constantly changing. So are the wheat and tares.

so what do we say then? i think if we’re going to stick with the likely view that the tares are people just as we are, we still have to balance it against the rest of the Bible…

this is one parable, it can’t supercede every other part of the Word that argues for restorative wrath being wielded by love for the sake of the object of wrath.

i think we’re making it too complicated. this is merely saying that God will sort out the evidoers. justice will be done, we can take comfort/warning from that…but mostly comfort, as the rest of the word talks of restoration and “fair togetherness” as Jason is fond of saying :slight_smile: it’s just that the full judgement and removal of bad people etc would damage the faithful at this time. maybe this is also saying then that God is aware of the perfect time for every act, and therefore we must be patient for this as we are for His return.

parables are meant to be a picture of something that is hard to understand with temporal minds, not the whole.

who sows the tares? the adversary
what are the adversaries children? lies, he is the father of lies
tares are lies

Well we must take comfort that no matter what punishment the sinner goes through at the end of the age, God is still love, his purpose is still corrective, and that the judge of all the earth will do right. Jesus used many parables that seem to contradict (though in truth they don’t) Ultimate Reconciliation, and we should never shrug them off, but this particular one is not without hope.

I continue to look at the final verse as a prophecy of all one day being justified,

"Then the just will shine out as the Sun in the Kingdom of their* Father." **

*Romans 5:18

**Acts 17:29, Ephesians 4:6

Just sitting back eating my popcorn…

So no one is going to show up and give a Preterist take on this one huh? :slight_smile:

I’ve seen some very convincing arguements from that perspective on this exact parable.

Anyone? No one? Hmm. :confused:

Going back to eating my popcorn then. :sunglasses:

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The following pretty much sums up my understanding of what Christ had in mind when he gave this parable: Hell and the "End of the Age"

I’d only add that the “devil” or “evil one” who sowed the “weeds” should probably be identified as that which is figuratively identified as a “serpent” in Genesis 3: the deceptive and “crafty” desires of the flesh, which, when yielded to, lead to sin and an antagonism to what is good and true (May I have feedback on my CU drafts? (see last 5 paragraphs).

I was thinking the same thing myself, ISIA.
Thanks for that link to your previous post on this Aaron.

I think the preterist view neatly answers this one, assuming that the Wheat and Tares are (or rather, were) distinct individuals.

So, are we to allow the lies that are in our own hearts and the lies of others to grow together with the truth?

Matt

Sherman, can you or anyone else please elaborate as to weeping and gnashing of teeth indicating repentance and terrible, angry remorse in this parable (or others, for that matter). When Cain was confronted by the LORD for murdering Abel he mourned his own punishment. Easu found no chance to repent, though he sought it with tears. Also, the rich man (Dives?) lamented his fate but did not appear to give any indication of repentance. In each of these examples it appears that the transgressors only show sorrow for their condition, not what they’ve done. There are multitudes of men and women in prisons today who readily confess to their crimes, acknowledge that they belong in prison and hate their punishment but have no sense of remorse or contrition. Prior to my becoming a Christian I had a few dust ups with police and the court systems. While I was greatly enraged / saddened / frustrated with my situation, I wasn’t truly repentant even though I knew I was guilty. I was more pissed that I had been caught. I know that I can not presuppose that my own experience is indicative of every single human that has ever existed, but it still seems to be Biblically based.

Matt

Hi Matt –

Just want to say that I really appreciate the grace of your posts – I don’t know any Calvinists; but you are a good advert for Calvinism.

I find it difficult to put Cain, Esau and Dives in the same boat as characters all showing a sort of resentful rage rather than true remorse at their crimes.

God banishes Cain form his presence to live in exile in the land of Nod – but the ways I see his tears are s if he is a child who has done something in a frenzy and hardly knows what he has done – but with the awful realisation he is made to bear responsibility – as Adam and Eve also are as they are banished from the Garden. But God protects Cain from revenge killing by putting a mark on him; so this is not a clear cut story of damnation.

With Esau – yes he cries his tears but this time there is no murder and Jacob and Esau are in the end reconciled without any revenge killing.

Dives – the fictional character from Jesus’ parable does actually at least show concern for his friends and one early Universalist – a disciple of Origen - interpreted this as a sign of hope. Even in hell God is present in the virtue of compassion that Dives shows and this would outlast the scene of wrath. Perhaps this last gloss on scripture is a long shot – but I still don’t think that any of these three examples necessarily fit tidily together as types of resentful rage instead of remorse/repentance.

In terms of criminal justice – there is much evidence to show that criminals actually do feel remorse and want to make amends where a process of restorative justice is tried. Where they fully face their victims, and hear their victim’s stories and are required to make restitution. It doesn’t always work – there are people who are simply sociopaths – but it works a lot more that when people simply undergo retribution by the state. And I guess this is an appeal of PSA – this requires a person to confront what they have in a sense done to God and what God has done for them.
Blessings

Dick

Hi Dick, hope your Lenten season is going good. Thank you for your kind words. You too are a great rep for your position. I’ve recently started a couple of other threads and don’t have time to respond to this one right now, but I just wanted to acknowledge your post! Take care of yourself and hopefully I can come back to this one soon :wink:

Matt

I continue to look at the final verse as a prophecy of all one day being justified,

"Then the just will shine out as the Sun in the Kingdom of their* Father." **

Amen, I finally registered to this forum just to make that point. After the tares make their trip through the furnace, THEN THEIR RIGHTEOUSNESS will shine through. The wheats righteousness is already apparent, it’s not shining because the tares are finally out of the way, no the tares have now been made righteous by the refiners fire and shine along with the wheat, or have been made into wheat or however you want to say it!

Thanks everyone on this site for sharing your hearts, I’ve been reading along for awhile and have been extrembly blessed and encouraged to discover this site. I had practically given up on the whole “God Thing” in my heart because I just couldn’t understand hell and all of the trailing effects of that theology. This is the God that I want to share with my neighbours! To be able to do so while still having Gods word as my foundation is truly awesome, thanks again!

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