The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Spirit blasphemy - unpardonable sin

Some other verses from the gospel of Luke:

Fear not, said the angel who announced it, for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people. Luke 2:10.

Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men. Luke 2:14.

Luke 3:5 Every valley shall be filled,
and every mountain and hill shall be made low,
and the crooked shall be made straight,
and the rough ways made smooth;
Luke 3:6 and all flesh shall see the salvation of God.

But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. Luke 6:35

Luke 15:3 And he spake this parable unto them, saying, 4What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?

Luke 15:8 Either what woman having ten pieces of silver, if she lose one piece, doth not light a candle, and sweep the house, and seek diligently till she find it?

Lk. 17:4 Even if he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times returns to say, ‘I repent,’ you must forgive him.”

tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

“The Scripture never declares that the punishment imposed upon any sin is that of endless punishment. And, neither in Matthew
12, Mark 3, Luke 12, or any other chapter of Scripture, are we told that penalty which includes unending divine wrath even as
interminable human misery, shall accrue to those who blaspheme the spirit.”

“Wherever we read that sin shall not be pardoned, or
forgiven, the sense is simply that whatever the just pen
alty may be for such a misdeed, it will not be remitted, or
let go. It does not follow, however, from the phrase, con
cerning him “that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost,”
that “it shall not be forgiven” him (Luke 12:10, AV), that
that from which he shall not be “forgiven” (i.e., released)
is a penalty consisting of abiding estrangement from God
in the presence of eternal burnings.”

"Where we read in this verse, as in the Concordant Ver
sion, that “the one who blasphemes the holy spirit shall
not be pardoned the implicit idea, conveyed through the
figure of ellipsis, is that such a one shall not be pardoned
from the penalty which justly accrues to this sin. From
a literary standpoint, it is simply incorrect to interpret such
texts as if their sense were, “shall not be pardoned,” from
a penalty consisting of or incorporating a specific woe,
namely, that of eternal separation from God.”

“Such verses say nothing as to the nature of the pen
alty for such disobedience; to claim that they do man
ifests a deficiency of reading comprehension. Or, in the
case of any who are aware that these texts, indeed, do not
reveal the nature of the penalty which accrues to this sin
and yet argue as if these texts did contain such informa
tion, the error then becomes that of circular reasoning,
assuming what is at issue as if it had been proved. Such
an error is exacerbated by making such arguments on the
basis of our texts under consideration (i.e., Matt. 12:31,32;
Mark 3:28-30; Luke 12:8-10), ones which are incapable of
answering such a question.”

“The Blasphemy of the Spirit and Overwhelming Grace, and “Unpardonable” Sin” booklet, p.11-12)

s3.amazonaws.com/unsearchableri … Spirit.pdf

Here is something for [tag]Origen;[/tag] [tag]Paidion[/tag] or anyone else.

Matthew 12:31-"Therefore * I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven.
Matthew 12:32-"Whoever * speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever * speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.

Matthew 12:31 links with verse 32 with the conjunction και(and). Here are some questions:

1.In verse 31 it mentions blasphemy(βλασφημια)against the Spirit and in verse 32 it mentions speaks against(ειπη κατα)are these two different since the conjunction has one verse saying one thing and another verse saying another?
2.Why would Jesus use βλασφημια in verse 31 and ειπη κατα in verse 32 if they mean the same thing? Why not use one or the other? Jesus wouldn’t repeat himself if he uses the and(και)conjunction.
3.If they are different types of insults against the Spirit does both verses tie into “in this age or in the age to come”?

James, according to the two verses above, whether one blasphemes against the Spirit or speaks against the Holy Spirit, neither will be forgiven. However, “Any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people.” Blasphemy is defined as “the offense of speaking sacrilegiously about God or sacred things; desecration.” From this definition, blasphemy itself is speaking against God or “against the Spirit” which says it shall be forgiven people.
Again, it says, “Whoever speaks against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him.” Considering Jesus was the Son of Man and the Spirit of God was in Him, then blaspheming, or speaking against Him would still be speaking against the Spirit, and according to Matthew,’'it shall be forgiven him."

I am not sure of this one. But I would like to point out that the Greek verb “αφιημι” (aphiāmi) has many different meanings. “Forgive” is only one of them. Another one of the meanings is “allow” or “permit”.

I am thinking that the following might have been what Jesus actually said:

I am not taking any definite position on this, but I am looking at possibilities. I noticed that “people” is in the dative case. That is why I placed the preposition “to” before it. The same with “him” in the following verse.

“Forgiven to people” doesn’t seem to make good sense grammatically, but “allowed to people” does.

To allow some one do something doesn’t mean that their action is condoned. It may indicate only that you will require no adverse consequences.

If my suggestion is correct, then blasphemy against the Spirit is not allowed and WILL have consequences.

Ok but doesn’t that beg the question if it’s not allowed in this age or the age to come does it mean it’s allowed after those ages?

Also “every sin and blasphemy will be allowed to people” so according to this translation every sin and blasphemy is allowed? So we can sin and blasphemy all we want so along as it’s not against the Holy Spirit?

Perhaps they might be the ones, who experience the tribulation? And the Zombie Apocalypse, as illustrated in the linked video? All before being pardoned - of course.

It may lead to that question; I don’t know whether or not it would imply that it’s allowed after those ages.
By the way, “begging the question” has never been used in the way that you used it until relatively recently. In the study of logic, “begging the question” is assuming that the conclusion of an argument is true, and then making that conclusion one of the premises.

I think I dealt with that objection in my post that you quoted.

However, as I think about it, that doesn’t seem in accordance with God’s character. Surely everyone who does any kind of wrong act needs correction—including Christians. Our characters must be changed so that we will choose the good and reject the bad. So it may well be that my suggestion for translating the word as “allowed” is incorrect. Yet, if it is translated as “forgiven” your objection still stands.

So we are back to forgiven for the correct translation? If so then we still need to figure out why kai is being used. Is it being used:

1.To link the two verses together suggesting that there are two unpardonable sins and if so does both coordinate with the ages to come?
2.As an adverbial conjunction? Such as indeed(since that is one definition of kai)if so then Jesus is repeating Himself as a way to emphasize the action in the previous verse(verse 31).

Well… I am not back to anything being the correct translation. I was but offering another possible translation.
The only reason I referred again to “forgiven,” is that the objection you raised concerning “allowed” applies equally well to “forgiven.”

Yep qaz davo’s point makes mucho sense but only if you view the context in the proper way. That is the rub, EVERYONE wants to read the gospels (and all of scripture) as if it was written to them. :open_mouth:

Context is everything :laughing:

Well… I would say that’s a very good thing! So much of it seems to be addressed to man universally, especially the teachings of the Anointed One. After Jesus gave his teaching as to how to live (in contrast to the Mosaic laws and those of other Hebrew teachers), He wrapped it up with these words, as are recorded in Matthew 7, ESV:

21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’
23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’
24 “Everyone then who hears these words of mine and does them will be like a wise man who built his house on the rock.
25 And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house, but it did not fall, because it had been founded on the rock.
26 And everyone who hears these words of mine and does not do them will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand.
27 And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell, and great was the fall of it.”

First He speaks of “that day”—some day future to that time. It seem to refer to a day of judgment, since some hope to escape judgment by appealing to the works that they did, such as prophesying in Jesus’ name, casting out demons in His name, and doing many mighty works in His name.
Then Jesus says EVERYONE who hears His words and DOES them will be like a wise man who builds his house on a rock—that will be able to withstand rain, floods, and winds. You and I, Chad, by reading Jesus’ teachings and DOING them fit into that category.

If Jesus had meant only those who were present at the time, standing their listening to Him, would He have not made it plain? He could have said, “All of you people who are listening to me right now and do as I say is like a wise man, etc.” But He said “EVERYONE.” Yes, that included those who were standing there hearing Him speak. But it also included EVERYONE who ever would become aware of His teachings.

Then there’s the passage in John 3 that contains the most well-known verse in the entire New Testament:

Who was Jesus addressing? He was addressing one man—Nicodemus. Do His words apply only to Nicodemus? He said “WHOEVER.” He spoke of God loving THE WORLD. Clearly His words applied to all people. To Nicodemus. To all who lived in the world at that time, and those who have lived in the world every century since that time, right up to and including the present.

I asked about kai in relations to verse 31 and 32 in a language based facebook page that deals mostly in the Biblical languages and here is what he said about it:

George Gunn-It appears to have more of an epexegetical force, clarifying the statement in verse 31.

No. Technically speaking, all sin and blasphemy are against the Holy Spirit. I tend to agree with what Davo is saying in his post. It is not just one particular sin per se. It is the sins of the many “piled high to the heavens”, or a build up of sin over time( ex. tower of Babel) until it finally comes to a head. When the “bubble bursts” the consequences of it affect many and can last for several generations before healing and restoration take place. This is Isaiah’s “punishment unto the third and fourth generations.”( Or something like that. I’m too lazy to look it up right now.)

Yes, I agree with Paidion. This does apply to all mankind. Such destructions occur and reoccur throughout history.

Don said:

Thanks Don, but I actually said :

So let’s see the context of Christ’s own words and the words of the Gospel writers as to who Jesus was talking to. :smiley:

Mat 15:22 And a Canaanite woman from that region came out and began to cry out, saying, “Have mercy on me, Lord, Son of David; my daughter is cruelly demon-possessed.”
Mat 15:23 But He did not answer her a word. And His disciples came and implored Him, saying, “Send her away, because she keeps shouting at us.”
Mat 15:24 But He answered and said, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”

And:
Mat 10:1 Jesus summoned His twelve disciples and gave them authority over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal every kind of disease and every kind of sickness.
Mat 10:2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these: The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; and James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother;
Mat 10:3 Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James the son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus;
Mat 10:4 Simon the Zealot, and Judas Iscariot, the one who betrayed Him.
Mat 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent out after instructing them: "Do not go in the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter any city of the Samaritans;
Mat 10:6 but rather go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Mat 10:7 "And as you go, preach, saying, ‘The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’

And:
Mat 2:4 Gathering together all the chief priests and scribes of the people, he inquired of them where the Messiah was to be born.
Mat 2:5 They said to him, “In Bethlehem of Judea; for this is what has been written by the prophet:
Mat 2:6 ‘AND YOU, BETHLEHEM, LAND OF JUDAH, ARE BY NO MEANS LEAST AMONG THE LEADERS OF JUDAH; FOR OUT OF YOU SHALL COME FORTH A RULER WHO WILL SHEPHERD MY PEOPLE ISRAEL.’”

And:
Luk 1:67 And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Spirit, and prophesied, saying:
Luk 1:68 "Blessed be the Lord God of Israel, For He has visited us and accomplished redemption for His people,
Luk 1:69 And has raised up a horn of salvation for us In the house of David His servant–
Luk 1:70 As He spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from of old–

Also:
Joh 1:47 Jesus saw Nathanael coming to Him, and *said of him, “Behold, an Israelite indeed, in whom there is no deceit!”
Joh 1:48 Nathanael *said to Him, “How do You know me?” Jesus answered and said to him, “Before Philip called you, when you were under the fig tree, I saw you.”
Joh 1:49 Nathanael answered Him, “Rabbi, You are the Son of God; You are the King of Israel.”

I could go on but I think you catch my idea. Christ was sent specifically to the house of Israel: Though ‘mankind’ was also the recipient of the blessing that the Messiah brought to his people. :laughing:

The point is that from my perspective, the Pantelist view is that Jesus came for God’s people Israel, and through that ‘happening’ all of us were blessed. I am agreeing with the Pantelist view… I was merely commenting to qaz about his comment about the Pantelist view, much to the chagrin about Pantelism by certain folks here. :laughing:

These are two typical questions your wrong-headed thinking naturally raises WHEN…

1) You ignore the scriptural answers already given, i.e., in light of the text above… what makes you think there is yet more sin to be dealt with beyond the grave that Jesus’ atoning work didn’t FULLY nullify and rectify way back at Calvary?
2) What does your take on Heb 9:27 do to your question above? Again, is such a scenario you suggest even possible? Given Jesus said… “the Scripture cannot be broken” — in light of the Hebrews passage, what does your suggestion make of Lazarus and those saints seen in Mt 27:52-53?

THAT indeed IS the problem your wrong-headed approach raises to which YOU need to supply the answer… from a pantelist perspective, such a loopy proposition does not exist.

Said ‘blasphemy’ was a generational sin, i.e., pertinent ONLY to those of Israel debasing as demonic Yahweh’s redemptive works in and through Christ ON BEHALF OF all Israel — no more, no less. As such, those committing this offence died or were deported, i.e., exiled (2Thess 1:9; Jer 23:39-40), which in biblical parlance = death; that which occurred under Titus in or subsequent to Jerusalem’s AD70 conflagrations. They did NOT experience IN LIFE the forgiveness that was theirs… thus fulfilling Jesus’ words in Jn 8:21, 24.

1 Like

LLC said

Not sure what you are saying. All sin is sin… we either have to acknowledge that Jesus took care of the said sin or you are with the evangelicals saying that we have to do something to receive that said redemption from sin…

Good luck :smiley:

Davo, The way I see it, Jesus’ death had nothing to do with life after we leave this earth, but had everything to do with this life ON EARTH.

MM, How did Jesus take care of the said sin?
In response to the OP, the verses in question state that any sin and blasphemy will be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven in this age(that present age) or the age to come. What I’m saying is that this does not compute because ALL sin and blasphemy is against the Spirit. However, there is individual sin and collective sin. An ungodly kingdom(collective sin) does not grow overnight, and it doesn’t dissolve overnight either.

  1. If Jesus atoning work nullified sin, then why is the daily (bad news) newspaper full of it everyday?

As for Romans 6:23, i’ve previously referred you & others to Jason Pratt’s commentary here:

  1. Is there a point being made amidst this flurry of queries?

AFAIK the BHS is never properly defined in Scripture, so the questions remain as to what it is & has anyone ever committed this sin. In any case it is limited in its penalty to two ages, beyond which there is at least one more age, so this sin tell us nothing about final destiny.

HOW with any confidence can you claim this above WHEN you have already prefaced it with this below? You are being inconsistent!…

IF that be true then your “AFAIK the BHS” claim is false. Which I propose it is, as there is textual evidence to the contrary of your claim, as per…

There is your clearly and “properly defined” stated reason as to what constitutes ‘the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit’ — attributing Jesus’ works as being those of the master of demons. << there is your definition!