The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Rom 6:23 Revisited

By all appearance, the apostles thought they were living in the end times.

But God revealed a secret to Paul not given to any of the other apostles, that Israel was to be set aside and all the Old Testament promises put on hold until this:

For I am not willing for you to be ignorant of this secret, brethren, lest you may be passing for prudent among yourselves, that callousness, in part, on Israel has come,** until the complement of the nations may be entering**. And thus all Israel shall be saved, according as it is written, Arriving out of Zion shall be the Rescuer. He will be turning away irreverence from Jacob." And this is my covenant with them Whenever I should be eliminating their sins. As to the evangel, indeed, they are enemies because of you, yet, as to choice, they are beloved because of the fathers. For unregretted are the graces and the calling of God. For even as you once were stubborn toward God, yet now were shown mercy at their stubbornness, thus these also are now stubborn to this mercy of yours, that now they also may be shown mercy. For God locks up all together in stubbornness, that He should be merciful to all." (Rom 11:25-32)

When Christ returns, Israel picks up where they left off.

Davo, I see what you are saying here, and I agree that Jesus was addressing the people at that time. But, as you mentioned, He was also addressing “any who have ears to hear”. To me, this means that these words were meant for people in any given generation, anywhere in the world. As long as man has existed and continues to exist, there will be sin in the world. Since this is the case, there will always be spiritual warfare of good against evil as well as the kingdom of men vs. the Kingdom of God.

I reject the idea of the Apostles thinking that the Second Coming would occur at time X.

The idea that one knows when the Second Coming will occur, or even approximately when it will occur, is nonsensical. We can never, ever know beforehand the time of the Second Coming. We can’t even estimate it to the nearest billion years.

Given that, the Apostles would not make such an elementary error.

Hi Geoffrey…

No offence, But I reject the idea that the NT writings are* NOT *filled with verbiage that indicates that they had an expectation of something happening soon (second coming). Jesus himself had many written accounts of saying things would happen soon. I don’t think an error was made. And we have to ask if they were liars? Paul’s verbiage was the same.

I think they knew God was going to take care of business soon. :open_mouth:

Yes qaz… and there was very good reason for the apostles to securely hold such expectations i.e., the words of their Master. Jesus was unequivocally CLEAR as to the times and seasons, i.e., the conditions to look for, AND THE FACT that at least some of them standing there were to witness these things…

On Jesus’ prophetic word some there present with him would indeed live to “see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom” — AND Jesus’ declaration assuredly links the preceding verse to this where…

Now whatever can be said of the extremely soon to occur transfiguration six days hence, it was NOT what Jesus just spoke of, i.e., of “angels” or to reward each per works. Such things were pertinent to the Parousia NOT the transfiguration.

And now speaking to said conditions Jesus said this…

Jesus came to fulfill ALL the Law, Prophets and Psalms (Lk 24:44), i.e., ALL THINGS WHICH ARE WRITTEN!

IF the apostles believed ONLY Jesus’ words THEY had good reason to BELIEVE these things were written of and spoken to and about to be consummated for THEM and their (Israel’s) redemption…

There was NO pathetic postponement of the promises per dismal dispensationalism… Jesus came to fulfill ALL, and ALL would come to fruition upon Jesus’ own generation then living…

Whether priests, pastors or pew-sitters… there is no excuse for explaining away these clear teachings of Jesus.

We can carry that kind of thinking too far. Sometimes the words had universal direction and application!

Yeah I hear what you’re saying Paidion, but it is also possible, well more than possible as it happens with regularity, where the historical context is read right over and summarily written off AND THEN any degree of contemporary interpretation supplemented as its rightful understanding; THAT IMO does great violence to the text/s where we develop whatever proposition suits our needs — which THEN can have the text/s saying more than was ACTUALLY intended; or to quote Paul… “…learn in us not to think beyond what is written

The historical context needs to at lest addressed as Andrew Perriman said

davo said,

I think Paidion makes a good point. You seem to discard the possibility that God designed His word in such a way that its *universal meaning *was able to be expressed to (and thus found its way into the hearts and minds of men and women in) each succeeding generation after Christ. This is what Catholicism (via Aquinas) would term the spiritual sense of Scripture. Not saying there aren’t false interpretations of course, but using your example one might say Jesus did “great violence” to meaning by almost exclusively speaking figuratively to His audiences. Holding to what the Bible actually [or literally] says is fine as far as it goes; most Christian mystics agreed with Aquinas that the literal is base or starting point meaning. But today literal meaning has been placed on a pedestal and worshipped by a large percentage of Christians–evidenced in part by the endless arguments over semantic subtleties and the aforementioned difficulty of the various factions within Christianity to resolve their differences.

I’m sure there are plenty of examples of misuse of Scripture to fit cultural norms, but I’m pushing the notion there’s more to the Bible’s meaning beyond where the literal is able to go…the question is do we have “ears to hear” it?

Perhaps so. I think we would agree that we mustn’t confuse ‘literal meaning’ with ‘correct interpretation’; I want to understand Paul literally as in the sense of: THIS is what he was saying, to THESE people, for THIS purpose. I don’t think we have plumbed those depths yet.

Also, we can’t go too wrong with Coverdale (yes, again):

“It shall greatly help ye to understand the Scriptures if thou mark
not only what is spoken or written,
but of whom and to whom,
with what words,
at what time, where,
to what intent,
with what circumstances,
considering what goeth before and what followeth after. ”

Very nice, I like that :smiley:

No not at all… I think there’s a “possibility” you are reading (misreading) more into what I’ve actually said. Let me quote again what I’ve stated previously in this thread that answers your notion…

That’s a little carte blanch… Jesus used a number of modes of speech according to his audience, sometimes plainly and sometimes more veiled; even so, his message got through to the Pharisees to where “they perceived he spoke of them” — and the only violence being concidered was what they wanted to do to him.

Yep, I couldn’t agree more.

This passage:

Has been quoted by a presenter here. It’s to show that God only shows the “truth”, to a certain select group of people. And that the majority of Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox and Protestant churches and theologians, have been deceived. At least, that’s how I have understood our presenter. Let’s look at another understanding (among many different understandings out there, mind you), by the Calvinist site Got Questions at

Why is God going to send a strong delusion in the end times?

It should be noted, that Got Questions also sides with eternal torment - in their answer (a position I neither side with nor endorse) :exclamation:

Thanks for clarifying davo. I was only responding to the thought quoted, true, not the whole of your post.

I see the spiritual side of Scripture operating in two distinct ways, subjective and objective (for immediate lack of better terms). You seem to be identifying the subjective aspect wherein God is thought to “speak” to individuals through certain passages. This drives the literal-only crowd nuts as anything outside their manmade rules is automatically eisegesis. To give fair due, because the speaking of the Holy Spirit in this way to individuals is subjective, though the meaning would likely contain objectively true elements, it would be meant for that person alone and will probably have few if any objective standards [from an external viewpoint] by which to confirm its authenticity. The proof would exist only within that person’s own experience.

The second, objective spiritual sense–what I felt you might disdain in your post; there are a large number of Christians today who do–would be the ordering by God of the literal meaning of His chosen authors in such a way that it gives rise to “new” spiritual principles unavailable to the literal sense. This sense provokes meaning that, in most cases, the authors themselves are unaware. My literalist brethren scream exegetical eisegesis at the top of their collective lungs at this one. I parenthesize “new” because this method, though immediately and firmly dismissed by the historio-grammaticians (new phrase?), would actually point up “changes” to traditional doctrine that have been in the Bible all along but–because humanity is always ultra-focused on its literal sense-- has not been recognized. Note Jesus’ criticism of the Pharisees who steadfastly tithed their dill, mint and cumin (keeping the literal law) while ignoring the ‘real’ stuff, the incorporeal and normatively powerful qualities that *should have *provided proper motivation for the literal keeping of the law–justice, mercy and faithfulness (Mat 23:23).

It’s from this second objective spiritual sense of Scripture that I noted in an earlier post Universalism, if it has legs to stand on, will find its justification. Universalism seems to be just as mired down in the literal mud as her sisters. Heck, Calvinists and Arminians have been beating on each other with the weapons of literalism for over 400 years with no resolution in sight.

I guess it’s carte blanche because it’s generally recognized that the lion’s share of His teachings were figurative, davo.

Personally speaking, one of the bigger problems I see when it comes to the Bible and the interpretations of it, is when people take it to mean life after we leave this earth. I think this is because many do not see the spiritual truths of what is being said happening right in front of our eyes as we speak. For example, when we say Jesus takes away the sin of the world, well since there is still sin in the world this must mean that at some later date, far in the future, Jesus will come, and every human being on the face of the earth will live together as one in a sin free world, all at the same time. As this seems unrealistic to some, then what is said must be talking about life after we leave here. However, if one should open their eyes, I believe they would see that what the Bible speaks of is right before them.

True… but that doesn’t mean what Jesus said was undiscernible, e.g., he who has two tunics give one away; going the second mile, all speaking to heart attitude, much as you allude to with Mt23:23 etc. Of course the wooden literalist might indeed have missed-the-boat, if you get-my-drift :wink:. But that said, I’m sure Jesus was patient with the likes of Nicodemus… “what, enter a second time!?

While I find grammatics invaluable I tend to lean towards the historic-narrative approach because it acknowledges the fact that none of the workings of God happened in a vacuum but were time and people specific… which is NOT to say such doesn’t have currency beyond, BUT appreciating historical context can help in minimising errant interpretations of given texts, especially eschatological / prophetic texts… which is the path I’ve come along in my journey into the inclusive reality of God’s grace to all.

Again true… I sense on some of this we may probably be closer than further apart. I myself am more an inclusionist than a universalist as I don’t subscribe to many of the universalist rationales, other than the total reconciliation of all… I just happen to get there via a different path.

That’s right LLC. One example of this is the evangelical notion that inheriting eternal life equates to going to heaven when we die… and thus then the formula of how to get there i.e., ‘The Roman Road’ etc, where being “saved” = “getting to heaven”; and so we have… “Unless a man is ‘born again’ he will not go to Heaven when he dies— otherwise read as — Unless a man is ‘born again’ he will be annihilated, or suffer eternal conscious torment in the fires of Hell — that is the evangelical reading and interpretation the 3rd chapter of John’s Gospel; but is this correct?

What Jesus actually said was one could neither “see” as in to comprehend nor “enter” as in to apprehendthe Kingdom of Godas a present reality without an internal reboot i.e., “the rebirth”. The Greek aorist infinitive of both these words indicating… actions as having occurred with indefinite results — Jesus was not pointing to some future state of being or to some future destination beyond the grave in terms of “Heaven” but rather a present standing or condition in God of having one’s heart and mind opened up to know the reality of His presence ‘in the here and now’. This is that which Jesus elsewhere calls “eternal life”… something which is qualitative more than quantitative; it is relational not spatial — much as Jesus and John say here…

Not so sure we ever leave this earth. We are born into it. We live in it. We die and our bodies go back to it. Then, in the resurrection, we come back to it again, because heaven is coming on earth. The veil is rent. Heaven is pouring in. “And God separated the waters above from the waters below, and He called the waters above heaven”…

The life we receive now is the same life we will always have. it is expanding from within us like the leaven in the dough. The aperture is opening wider and wider.

“Your will be done on earth, as it is in heaven” is the vision and the goal.

“Yet once more will I shake the heavens and the earth until only that which cannot be shaken remains”

“And the temple of God which is in heaven was opened; and the ark of His covenant appeared in His temple, and there were flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder and an earthquake and a great hailstorm.”

And what is the temple of God that is in heaven?

"In Him the whole building is fitted together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord. 22And in Him you too are being built together into a dwelling place for God in His Spirit:…“Don’t you know that you yourselves are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit dwells in your midst?”

And what is the ark of the covenant that appears in the temple?

“Christ crucified”, the Word in the wooden box within which the branch that was cut off still bears blossoms of life and the manna from heaven- crowned by the cherubim on either side of the mercy seat where God came to receive the offering of the blood of the spotless firstborn lamb

“I shall be their God and they shall be my people and I will live among them and walk among them”

Yea, I dont think we are “going to heaven”, I think heaven is coming to us.

“But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.”

That is why the whole creation groans in the pangs of childbirth even until now.

“Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord; 20and that He may send Jesus, the Christ appointed for you, 21whom heaven must receive until the period of restoration of all things about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time."(Peter at Pentecost)

What was Pentecost all about but the pouring out of heaven into the earth, and as Christ was lifted up in them, they lived as if the new heavens and the new earth had come among them- because it had…

"And they were all as one soul…no one among them had any need…great grace was upon them all…signs and wonders took place at the hands of the apostles.

"Times of refreshing from the presence of the Lord… And you shall receive the promise of the Holy Spirit… ""Whom the heavens must receive UNTIL the period of the RESTORATION OF ALL THINGS spoken of by all the prophets since ancient times.

To me it all sounds like it is "coming down out of heaven

“Lift up ye gates, and be lifted up you eternal doors- that the king of glory may come in…who is this King of Glory- the Lord strong and mighty”

The kingdom of heaven is within, and the deeper the higher, “Deep calls unto deep at the sound of Thy waterfalls O Lord!”

“And I heard His voice and it was like the sound of the rushing of many waters, like the praises of ten thousands od ten thousands of His holy ones”

“Come, all you that thirst, drink freely of the water of life”

“He that believes in me, out of His innermost being shall flow rivers of living water, this He spoke of the Spirit that should be given to all them that believed, but the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus had not yet been glorified”

“And those He predestined He also called, those He called He also justified, those He justified He also glorified.”

Christ in us, the hope of glory.vNot so sure we ever leave this earth. We are born into it. We live in it. We die and our bodies go back to it. Then, in the resurrection, we come back to it again, because heaven is coming on earth. The veil is rent. Heaven is pouring in. “And God separated the waters above from the waters below, and He called the waters above heaven”…

The life we receive now is the same life we will always have. it is expanding from within us like the leaven in the dough. The aperture is opening wider and wider.

“Your will be done on earth, as it is in heaven” is the vision and the goal.

“And the temple of God which is in heaven was opened; and the ark of His covenant appeared in His temple, and there were flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder and an earthquake and a great hailstorm.”

And what is the temple of God that is in heaven?

“In Him the whole building is fitted together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord. 22And in Him you too are being built together into a dwelling place for God in His Spirit.”

And what is the ark of the covenant that appears in the temple?

“Christ crucified”, the Word in the wooden box within which the branch that was cut off still bears blossoms of life and the manna from heaven- crowned by the cherubim on either side of the mercy seat where God came to receive the offering of the blood of the spotless firstborn lamb

“I shall be their God and they shall be my people and I will live among them and walk among them”

Yea, I dont think we are “going to heaven”, I think heaven is coming to us.

“But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.”

That is why the whole creation groans in the pangs of childbirth even until now.

“Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord; 20and that He may send Jesus, the Christ appointed for you, 21whom heaven must receive until the period of restoration of all things about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time."(Peter at Pentecost)

What was Pentecost all about but the pouring out of heaven into the earth, and as Christ was lifted up in them, they lived as if the new heavens and the new earth had come among them- because it had…

"And they were all as one soul…no one among them had any need…great grace was upon them all…signs and wonders took place at the hands of the apostles.

"Times of refreshing from the presence of the Lord… And you shall receive the promise of the Holy Spirit… ""Whom the heavens must receive UNTIL the period of the RESTORATION OF ALL THINGS spoken of by all the prophets since ancient times.

To me it all sounds like it is “coming down out of heaven”

“Lift up ye gates, and be lifted up you eternal doors- that the king of glory may come in…who is this King of Glory- the Lord strong and mighty”

The kingdom of heaven is within, and the deeper the higher, “Deep calls unto deep at the sound of Thy waterfalls O Lord!”

“And I heard His voice and it was like the sound of the rushing of many waters, like the praises of ten thousands od ten thousands of His holy ones”

“Come, all you that thirst, drink freely of the water of life”

“He that believes in me, out of His innermost being shall flow rivers of living water, this He spoke of the Spirit that should be given to all them that believed, but the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus had not yet been glorified”

“And those He predestined He also called, those He called He also justified, those He justified He also glorified.”

Christ in us, the hope of glory.

“I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband.”

“Lift up ye gates, and be lifted up you eternal doors- that the king of glory may come in…who is this King of Glory- the Lord strong and mighty”

The kingdom of heaven is within, and the deeper the higher, “Deep calls unto deep at the sound of Thy waterfalls O Lord!”

“And I heard His voice and it was like the sound of the rushing of many waters, like the praises of ten thousands od ten thousands of His holy ones”

“Come, all you that thirst, drink freely of the water of life”

“He that believes in me, out of His innermost being shall flow rivers of living water, this He spoke of the Spirit that should be given to all them that believed, but the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus had not yet been glorified”

“And those He predestined He also called, those He called He also justified, those He justified He also glorified.”

Christ in us, the hope of glory.

"Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, saying: “To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever!”

Sounds like heaven on earth to me :slight_smile:

He made the earth to be inhabited.
biblehub.com/ylt/isaiah/45.htm

One of the problems I perceive is that students of the Scriptures put the Circumcision writings in with the Uncircumcision writings, into a big pot, stir them up and say “this is for us.”

There is a vast difference between the future allotment of the Circumcision believers and that of the nation of Israel and that of the uncircumcision believers of the nations.
God does not give the believers of the Circumcision celestial bodies when they are resurrected and neither do they meet the Lord in the air when He returns for the believers of the uncircumcision.
Believers of the Circumcision have an allotment on earth in Israel.
Believers of the uncircumcision have a heavenly, celestial allotment among the heavens.

Christ is going to set up the kingdom which is OF the heavens in Israel during the 1000 year reign and also on the new earth.
Since God is giving believers of the nations celestial bodies, this is to equip us for when we enter our realm among the celestials. Paul wrote to us of the nations that “our realm is inherent in the heavens.” “Inherent” means “belonging.” So when we meet the Lord in the air per 1 Thessalonians 4:17, we will be transported into the kingdom of the Son of His love (Col.1:13) and seat us among the celestial realms (Eph.2:6). And our job description will be:
Eph 3:10 that now may be made known to the sovereignties and the authorities among the celestials, through the ecclesia, the multifarious wisdom of God,

At the same time, Peter and the eleven apostles will be judging the 12 tribes of Israel (Matthew 19:28) and discipling the nations.