The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Aionios CAN'T be translated "eternal" for punishment!!!!!!!!

Aionios kolasis

Eternal punishment.

kolasis means

  1. to lop or prune, as trees and wings
  2. to curb, check, restrain
  3. to chastise, correct, punishment
  4. to cause to be punished

Barclay said kolasis never refers to retribution, but always to remediation.

And of course, if it’s *remedial *punishment, it cannot be everlasting.

that sounds good, but, once again one can find a scholar no matter what side they are on!~

Yes, but did you read my argument? Do you think eternal is a fitting translation?

I’ve been having a very long discussion with Luke about this on FB & the forum. I’ve settled on:

aionios = “of an undefined time period” = eonian
aion = “undefined time period” = eon

From the context you can find out information about eon, but eonian simply indicates that something occurs within an eon. This actually turns out to be a much more consistent translation (which is why it’s used in the Concordant Literal Version) than “eternal”, which can’t be consistently used e.g. Jonah time in the fish, stone walls & prison sentences in Josephus, occupation of Canaan, etc. See m.katabiblon.com/lexicon.php?lem … E%BF%CF%82 for more examples.

I agree with your excellent list of passages which I think makes it clear that aionios can’t be translated “eternal” without introducing many contradictions. It makes me sad that some people prefer to change “all/everyone/world” to mean “some”, rather than change “eternal” to mean “eonian”. It’s especially odd because, as far as I can tell, the only doctrine that is lost is ECT/P. i.e. God still has no beginning or end, the life with God still has no end, etc.

very good. it echoes the thoughts i had growing up that God’s wrath in the OT was ALWAYS remedial. it always corrected, and there was most times a promised reconciliation at the end (there are a couple examples where there isn’t, i think Edom is one). why would the NT contradict this and make the end hopeless if it was indeed to be a “better covenant”?

now, it seems so obvious i wonder why i missed it.
it seems we want to exagerate an indefinite period to become eternal, and we want to underestimate the word “all”…and why? so we can teach that God would do something in Scripture we never see Him doing?

Superb article Chris.
I think those passages are conclusive.
Hoping you and yours are enjoying the summer. God bless.
John

I’m thinkin about it. Are there any OT verses that are dealing with postmortem punishment clearly?

Jason has been looking into that I think. There is a topic around somewhere recently that discussed that. The thing with me growing up was this: You read about people being punished, say, those from Sodom, and I figured that since they were killed by God in their rebellion that they would be punished eternally since they never repented. But that is all based on ONE WORD, aionios, which can be translated in a non eternal sense. That is why I wrote this article because I was asking myself, “How long would God punish non repentant sinners?” What scriptural evidence is there that God punishes eternally? So as I was reading through the Old Testament there was verse after verse about his not being angry forever; about how he relents; about how he loves us even when we are rebellious; about how he wants to restore us even when he is threatening to thrash us. It was just so clear that even if he didn’t restore everyone; even if UR wasn’t true, he most certainly would NEVER punish eternally because that is not who he revealed himself to be! This is not me being overly sentimental. This is what he revealed about himself! This isn’t me being uncomfortable with eternal hell and therefore saying “a loving God wouldn’t do that!” This is me accepting what God has revealed about himself in the scriptures. The only thing against me is the word “aionios”, which can be translated in a non eternal way. So I can either accept the definition as “eternal” and have it contradict literally dozens and dozens of other crystal clear passages of scripture, or I can say, "No, you shouldn’t translate it “eternal” because you can translate it “lasting” or “of the age to come” or some other way that would allow scripture to harmonize without having to twist a hundred other scriptures to make it work.

Thanks John. Blessings to you and your family as well!

Good point from the O.T. not having any reference whatsoever to our western 2011 idea of “Eternal Punishment”.

And to follow up on what AllenB wrote:

J.W. Hanson
Jesus never adopted the language of His day on this subject. Their language was aidios timoria, endless torment. His language was aionion kolasin, age-lasting correction. They described unending ruin, He, discipline, resulting in reformation”.

This is also explains why the greek speaking first and second century early church were Universalists. There was no mistake to them what Jesus said.

William Barclay
“The Greek word for punishment is kolasis, which was not originally an ethical word at all. It originally meant the pruning of trees to make them grow better. There is no instance in Greek secular literature where kolasis does not mean remedial punishment. It is a simple fact that in Greek kolasis always means remedial punishment. God’s punishment is always for man’s cure.”

I am not referring to “post mortem” salvation. What I mean is, are those verses that you quoted about punishments before or after death? Does the OT speak of the day of judgement sentence?

Question.

Isn’t olam translated “forever” n Jer. 3:5, and Psalm 103:9?

How can we use these texts to prove that God’s anger doesn’t last “forever,” when “olam” doesn’t mean “forever”?

good question

Simple, if I say my anger doesn’t last for more than a minute, then would it be true to say that my anger will last for an hour? No, because I said it wouldn’t last for even a minute. If God says his anger will not last for an age, then it logically cannot last for eternity either.

If this is not convincing for you then might I draw your attention to Micah 7:18

He does not retain his anger forever(ad),
because he delights in steadfast love.

Or as Rotherham puts it,

He has not held fast, perpetually, his anger,
for, one who delights in lovingkindness, is he!

You see ‘ad’ carries the sense of future continuing on and on, practically perpetual. The Concordant Literal Version translates it,

He does not hold fast His anger for the future.
For He delights in kindness.

The Micah passge is interesting, but what about Jer. 3:5 and Psalm 103:9?

You said “If God says his anger will not last for an age, then it logically cannot last for eternity either,” but there are New Testament passages that speak of age-lasing punishment (or even punishment that lasts “unto the age of ages.”)

How can Jer. 3:5 and Psalm 103:9 be taken as unqualified statements that God’s punishment doesn’t last for an age, when it sometimes does?

Oh no one has said that God’s punishment will not last for an aion. Olam’s primary definition is ‘long duration’ it can refer to as short as 3 days (Jonah) or 50 years(Exodus) or even longer. Olam/Aion’s amount of time is not set in stone. Dirtboy’s point (and mine as well) is that God’s anger will not last forever, it will come to an end, his punishment will accomplish what he means for it to do. Scripture is clear that their will be a Correction and Judgment Age, but that it will end with God being All in All.

Chris – very good stuff! Thanks…

Couldn’t help be reminded of my own current favorite “horrible punishment is really meant for good” passage in Isaiah 19
(helps to remind ourselves that Egypt and Assyria are always the bad guys!)

Agreed. It’s a little ripper.

ancient Egypt as known in the time of that prophecy is dead. Assyria is dead too.
God can only really fulfill this prophecy by restoring them to life :slight_smile:
more support for post-mortem repentance?